Apparently it's all this guy's fault: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003jhg

Beyond the [Mueller] report, there’s plenty of evidence that Trump has collaborated with Russia against the U.S. government. He has shilled for Vladimir Putin, urged Russia to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails, defended a secret meeting to get Russian dirt on her, attacked U.S. intelligence agencies that documented Russia’s election interference, and fired the FBI director who was investigating that interference. All of these betrayals are recorded or acknowledged on video.

And Russia is just the beginning of the story. Trump’s treachery goes well beyond his service to Moscow. Transcripts, videos, and government records show that he has repeatedly collaborated with tyrants against our country. He has defended North Korea’s Kim Jong-un against U.S. intelligence that shows Kim is lying about his nuclear programs. He has defended Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince, against American intelligence that exposes the crown prince’s role in the murder of a U.S. resident. He has sided with Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, against American generals and U.S. law enforcement. He has declared that the Chinese government is more honorable than the American Democratic Party.

Trump’s treachery goes way beyond Russia

I ask once again, is anyone here willing to believe me that we have an issue at my States Southern border?
The last time I tried to bring this topic up it was met with dismissal because my citations and sources were biased, Jay Sekulow ring a bell?

Please tell me something my fellow 'thinkers' what it is going to take before someone actually deals with the facts and tries not to continue to spread the bs that nothing is wrong and the problems my state is facing are a "manufactured crisis"?
And I ask this for obvious reasons but also because of a genuine question I asked at the old sandbox and the shocking answers I was met with. My question was: In the event of a civil war breaking out in the USA, who is going to offer to come and help us? If one side of the civil war is accusing the other side of deeply nefarious activities such as the use of chemical weapons or other war crimes, who, what country represented here on the boards would believe the American citizen enough to come into our country and help us?

The answer was a resounding no one. Not a single country, or forum member was willing to step up to help the Americans, for whatever their reason, it was a nope. The only country that was willing was suggested by (I want to say @ssu) was Canada and even then it wasn't that they would move troops in but rather Canada would be able to offer medical services, maybe?

The proverbial popcorn bucket that nations around the world have been sharing and enjoying as they watch the USA, at times sounding hopeful, that the USA would implode is empty. Empty like every churches coffer in Arizona who is dealing with an undeniable crisis, it is not over and it is getting hot. Not Springtime in Minnesota hot, not even the oppressive heat in Atlanta in the middle of July. No, the heat is on and Mother Nature can be wicked here in the desert. We are on set to have one of the worst fire seasons on record and we as a state are not at a breaking point but we are broken. Asylum seekers are being released on their "OR" and that stands for something @Hanover could better explain but it stands for your "Own Recognizance" and in practical terms, it means your signature is your promise to be released while you await your court date.

We cannot absorb what we are being met with, we are no longer treading water, we have slipped under the surface and are barely able to make it back for air.

We cannot absorb all those seeking asylum here in the USA, many passing through two countries that they could claim asylum in but they are here and what do we do now?

What is more inhumane? Closing down the border until we can retain some sense of order or is it more humane to shuttle thousands of people up to the Greyhound Bus Stop in Phoenix, dropping them off with no food, no money and no plan? The heat is coming folks and for those that make it into Phoenix, I am sorry to tell them that we are so overfilled that we are no longer able to care for our own let alone more.

Immoral?
Reality?

Or will I again be dismissed in my assertions because the presses "story" doesn't jive with what someone, many of you have known personally for over a decade, is saying?

(I normally would say that I am "sorry" for expressing something so bluntly but the lack of faith in my word by fellow members has impacted me ever so slightly)

If I may. Apparently you are describing a real problem. As to the scope/dimension of your real problem, I in Mass. have no way to judge, other than news. So I do not question that you have a real problem, but I must question it's overall size, nature, structure.

A problem, maybe at the moment the problem, is our sorry excuse for a leader whose lies are so many that nothing that comes out of his mouth, or the mouths of those who serve him, may be regarded as being in any way true. Even when he accidentally does say something true! And these same liars have so polarized and poisoned the discussion that at best we operate within the fallacy of false alternatives.

But let's try an exercise, if you will, the kind of exercise propaedeutic to the enterprise of establishing exactly what the problem is, so that it - the problem - may be as exactly solved as possible. If this sounds like something from quality management, it is, and adopted here.

The expression of the problem ought to provide some guidance to a real-world solution to the problem. Setting your problem aside, then, perhaps to be merged in a more general expression, what do you say the problem is, exactly?

"[R]eal-world solution to the problem" because it's a common experience to lay out both a problem and a solution, and then to go out and solve or try to solve some other problem. In the opinions of many including myself, the wall is just such a miss-guided solution.

Have a go: what's the problem? How would you solve it?

Have a go: what's the problem? How would you solve it? — tim wood

The problem? The inability for the United States government to reform our immigration laws and the message that inability to compromise is sending to those who may wish to seek asylum in the USA. The message being conveyed is get in now before the border closes. We, in the state of Arizona have our own vulnerable population that is in need.

The solution? We have a saying out here on the ranch that might have made it to quality control before that explains how the solution I have and the one that we can achieve now are two very different things.
The saying is: "That horse has already left the barn." There is no way, NO WAY to go back to my suggested solutions.

You may hold the opinion that "the wall" is a "mis-guided solution" and you are absolutely entitled to it.
However, I said NOTHING about "the wall" in this discussion, you did.
So now I ask you:
What is the problem as you see it? And what is the solution?

And, since you decided to respond: how does the idea that not a single country represented would help the USA in the event of a civil war impact you?

Surely that response would restore your faith in humanity, right?

Apparently you are describing a real problem — tim wood

So one vote in that this is still an "apparent" crisis to only me.
unreal :broken:
What is it going to take to get the point across? For more people to die because we cannot accommodate them?
Jesus, God in Heaven....115* heat for more than 45 days at a time only dropping to 90* at night?

Maybe do a bit of fact finding about how people die in AZ in less than 12 hours of exposure and I am being VERY generous as to how long it takes.

I hope and pray it doesn't get to the point that you need bodies in the street, like in the Parishes in New Orleans to know that the levy actually did break.

Tell me where your check and balances are in logic please. They are not based in facts unless someone reports it or you see it for yourself? Come on down, I have friends in Yuma that you can stay with to get a first hand look at the reality playing out before our eyes.
Game? And if not, why?

@tim wood And if you have a child who would like to attend an AZ University? You will continue to be charged the fee of being an out of state student and those here undocumented will pay the much lower AZ resident price. Are you starting to see the ripples in your logic?
We cannot handle this

I don’t think anyone is opposed to immigration reform. Unfortunate that our divider-in-chief puts all his energy into fulfilling a stupid campaign promise.

I don’t think anyone is opposed to immigration reform. Unfortunate that our divider-in-chief puts all his energy into fulfilling a stupid campaign promise. — praxis

heart breaking....absolutely heart breaking....
With all due respect praxis, our immigration system has been broken for many administrations.
I really don't give a flying fuck as to who is at the helm right now, the boat is sinking and I, a nurturer by nature, am running out of buckets to bail water with.

How do you explain the year on year reduction of illegal entry in the US through the border if the system is broken?

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Selected_Unauthorized_Immigration_Statistics.png#mw-jump-to-license

An administration dedicated to immigration reform would stand a better chance of achieving reform, I would think.

How do you explain the year on year reduction of illegal entry in the US through the border if the system is broken? — Benkei

Benkei, you are such a logical person did you follow a single link I provided with data as current as yesterday? How can you logic through 18,500 people being let into our community and not understand that we have a problem?

There are two logical ways for me to explain the massive influx at this time, during this administration but they are two very different explanations.

The first is that the message has been sent from President Trump that he plans on enforcing the border laws that are already on the books that past administrations have been guided by as well. And he is going to continue building the miles of barrier, various in nature, situational dependent, as past administrations have done. The difference? This President has attempted to follow through and do everything he can, in HIS power (Executive power), to secure our border.

The second explanation is: the corrupt civil wars in the countries south of the USA has gotten so bad that it's citizens are fleeing in fear of their lives. If that is true: then why would they not claim asylum in the very next country they enter?

An administration dedicated to immigration reform would stand a better chance of achieving reform, I would think. — praxis

I agree with that idea. I just don't know how we go about getting this back under control, to do anything other than try to make sure the people let into our communities survive.

I am desperately trying to sound the alarm bell that we are going under.

So now I ask you:
What is the problem as you see it? And what is the solution? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I start with the axiom that there are some irreducible truths, of the sort, for example from physics, that water is incompressible. Nothing complicated here but keeping in mind that real-world problems should be expressible in real-world terms, the solutions for which should be equally real-world; and that probably they concern certain irreducible facts that ought to be accurately determined and expressed.

Let's start with, "necessity knows no law." Again, rocket science not intended. The idea is the acknowledgement that folks can and will under certain conditions do things you and I, not subject to those conditions, do not want them to do.

Grant that and we're guided to why they do it. Per news that I am exposed to, people risk their's and their family's lives and well-being to crash our borders because that, risk included, is better then staying home. Find a clue here?

In very short, we send a diplomat and a soldier to the governments of those countries and say to them that they are creating problems for us, and our message to them is that they fix the problem, or we will!(!!!)

Meanwhile, are we so wretched and poor in both means and character that it monsters us to have a five-year-old ask for help and we not provide it?

Even a moment's thought - I mean real thinking - reveals that the current discussion is nothing about solving and everything about posturing, not mattering what evil is accomplished.

Edit: your problem, then, notwithstanding your discomfiture, is not with desperate people, but with governments that are not doing the job, or even trying to.

Even a moment's thought - I mean real thinking - reveals that the current discussion is nothing about solving and everything about posturing, not mattering what evil is accomplished. — tim wood

All I can do is ask you to read what I put up as I read what you do. At some point you might see the crisis.

Edit: your problem, then, notwithstanding your discomfiture, is not with desperate people, but with governments that are not doing the job, or even trying to. — tim wood

What an insult to those who are on the front lines of this crisis. To suggest that they, government workers, CBP are not trying to do their jobs?
What an insight from the top of the ivory tower... :down:

All I can do is ask you to read what I put up as I read what you do. At some point you might see the crisis. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

From the article:

Stancliff said now families must often spend a couple nights in Phoenix as they reach out to relatives and friends who can arrange travel. They often stay with volunteers as they wait for their buses or planes to depart. In that time, they need food, shelter, clean clothes and showers — a big undertaking for local churches and volunteers.

“It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”

From the article: — praxis

“It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”

Thank you for at least reading what I am posting. I greatly appreciate it. The perception of a crisis is in the eye of those charged with handling the it. For me? The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city.

While I am not wildly enthusiastic about millions of people migrating across our borders for jobs or asylum, there are certainly reasons why this is happening. First, the US has a long history of fucking over Central American and other countries south of the Rio Grande. We've interfered on behalf of United Fruit and other corporations, as well as various banana republic fascists and their friends. So it is not at all surprising that these countries are in bad shape in ever so many ways.

Secondly, we are singularly an economic and civil beacon on a hill. Where else are dissatisfied people going to go--Venezuela?

Third, this is our Dress Rehearsal for far larger future population movements owing to global warming. The closer one is to the equator, the sooner and the worse it will be for heat, weather, crop failures, diseases, etc. Europe has had its dress rehearsal, as have a bunch of other places. Bangladesh is so pleased with the Rohingya flood, that they are thinking of moving them to a large sand bar in the Bay of Bengal where conditions will be even worse than where they are now.

NOBODY LIKES MASS POPULATION MOVEMENT!!! Certainly not the people who are forced by fascism, war, heat, drought, and starvation, and certainly not the relatively poor people a thousand miles up the highway who aren't that much better off.

What does anyone else think of this? — OpinionsMatter

I think that colouring text green in an attempt to idiot-proof sarcasm is a brilliant idea. What genius thought that one up? Someone ought to give him a medal.

Also, obviously, I'm very much against Trump and the conservatives regarding their opposition to the Special Olympics.

Trump saves the Special Olympics. <color: green>Our hero!</color: green>

The I'll-see-what-I-can-get-away-with-and-if-I-can't-turn-it-into-a-win-anyway president.

The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's barely more than 200 people a day. If the great, and wealthy USA does not have the resources available to process 200 immigrants a day, then perhaps that's where the problem lies. I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude?

I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude? — Metaphysician Undercover

You could ask Tiff and others like her. But I don't expect that many people here will share her alarmist way of reacting to matters such as this. I mean, really, who sees immigration and thinks, "Civil war!!!! Who will help us!?!?!?" :scream:

18,500 people — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Legal or illegal?

Legal or illegal? — Benkei

Does that distinction matter to her, or doesn't it? And if so, for what reason? These are important related questions.

My struggle is not with legal immigrants, it is with the illegal immigrants. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

(I bolded your "immigrants" because I want to be sure that we are still talking about illegal immigrants because I have not a single issue if someone from another country is here legally. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I don't give a flying fig if someone is here legally or not, UNTIL they break the law. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Illegal or not, our community cannot handle the influx at the rate that we are looking at. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

As evidenced above, she has made a number of contradictory statements. Which does she stand by, if any? She can't have her cake and eat it.

And regarding her point about crime:

I believe there are a number of studies that claim to show immigrants, including illegal immigrants, commit crimes at a lower rate than the native-born. You can Google as well as I can. I agree that if there is an underreporting issue, which is plausible, it might be difficult, but not impossible, to correct for that. — Srap Tasmaner

What's your real issue with here, Tiff? I suspect that it is veiled under rationalisations. Your rationalisations have been countered each time. Whether you like it or not, you do not have the upper hand in this debate. Instead of taking everything so personally, why not absorb what is being said and use it to work on your critical thinking skills to either improve your arguments, or, better yet, reject them?

Is it an irrational fear? An irrational protectiveness? "Won't somebody think of the children!?!?". :scream:

While I am not wildly enthusiastic about millions of people migrating across our borders for jobs or asylum, there are certainly reasons why this is happening. First, the US has a long history of fucking over Central American and other countries south of the Rio Grande. We've interfered on behalf of United Fruit and other corporations, as well as various banana republic fascists and their friends. So it is not at all surprising that these countries are in bad shape in ever so many ways. — Bitter Crank

I am trying to embrace the idea of where we have come from to where we are BC. I have spent the last year in school and am blown away by the civil wars that have taken place within my lifetime that I had no recognition of. I say this not because I am proud of my ignorance or naivety but now as I push forward into social work, patterns of societies evolutions appear, many of which we have had to follow in depth. Now, there is nothing that I can do about what I missed in the past but I can push forward now to make sure tragedies like these don't happen again. To just give two examples of what is driving me is studying two mass exodus of people: that of the Sudan war which caused the flee to Ethiopia and Colombian Holocaust.
Forgive me when I see acts such as this at my border: I see the beginnings of the Lost Boys of Sudan and I do not want any mislead by our politicians thinking that our desert between here and there is any less dangerous.

Secondly, we are singularly an economic and civil beacon on a hill. Where else are dissatisfied people going to go--Venezuela? — Bitter Crank

That is actually something I have pondered. If everyone is leaving Venezuela then maybe it would be easier for us to relocate to there and let them have the USA.

Third, this is our Dress Rehearsal for far larger future population movements owing to global warming. The closer one is to the equator, the sooner and the worse it will be for heat, weather, crop failures, diseases, etc. Europe has had its dress rehearsal, as have a bunch of other places. Bangladesh is so pleased with the Rohingya flood, that they are thinking of moving them to a large sand bar in the Bay of Bengal where conditions will be even worse than where they are now. — Bitter Crank

Because of the sheer mass of people, a year ago we were able to hold folks long enough AND the system was not overwhelmed we checked for diseases and criminal records of those wanting into the USA. Now? We have no idea what diseases were are dealing with nor what someone's criminal record is.

NOBODY LIKES MASS POPULATION MOVEMENT!!! Certainly not the people who are forced by fascism, war, heat, drought, and starvation, and certainly not the relatively poor people a thousand miles up the highway who aren't that much better off. — Bitter Crank

Bitter, I am becoming much more aware of the driving forces and the conditions people are fleeing and I am trying to move myself into the position of those who are in need. I am at a blending point, trying to find the in between of what can be done to help and when we have to admit that we are putting, everyone along this journey at such a risk when it comes to the summer here. I realize that before I was advocating policy from an administrations perspective only but now? I have seen what bs is spewed around the world to get people to move out of where they are to another land. I am moving to advocate for the asylum seekers but the logic of what I see is failing and before we have people dying from the heat, I move to do something now.

That's barely more than 200 people a day. If the great, and wealthy USA does not have the resources available to process 200 immigrants a day, then perhaps that's where the problem lies. I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude? — Metaphysician Undercover

Here are some numbers for you to compress and tell me that America can handle it.

The number of migrant families crossing the southwest border has once again broken records, with unauthorized entries nearly double what they were a year ago, suggesting that the Trump administration’s aggressive policies have not discouraged new migration to the United States.

More than 76,000 migrants crossed the border without authorization in February, an 11-year high and a strong sign that stepped-up prosecutions, new controls on asylum and harsher detention policies have not reversed what remains a powerful lure for thousands of families fleeing violence and poverty.

I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude? — Metaphysician Undercover

The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs.

Legal or illegal? — Benkei

Those who crossed our nations border illegally.
Benk, I am begging you to read this link.

What's your real issue with here, Tiff? — S

Damn, I ran out of time.