A social system must be able to absorb any number of things without being threatened in its general course. What we learn 1965-current is that the American system is slow in its ability to resolve certain kind of crises. The lie that used to come by horse but leave on foot now comes at the speed of light and from as many directions as possible, yet our means of disposing of them, resolving them, is still locked in 18th century mechanisms. It occurs to me that a remedy is to criminalize lying. We already have it in slander and libel laws, but unless I'm overlooking it (which can happen), I do not see any protection for the body politic itself. Yet that is what is attacked.

And perhaps we should distinguish between two kinds of lies, or at least these two. First is the lie that wants to represent a falsehood as truth, and that is dispensed with on exhibiting what the truth really is. The second kind of lie is indifferent to whether the lie is accepted as true. The purpose of this second kind of lie is to undermine the acceptance of all truth. This second is a real problem. I would accept putting away such liars for a long time as they constitute a real danger to the social system.

Free speech? I am pretty sure there is no freedom to lie. There are merely very few penalties for it. Maybe it's time there should be. Against this is the consideration that any cure might be worse than the disease. That too must be considered.

:lol:

Follow the yellow wig road...

The media is criticizing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for excluding them from two otherwise public town-hall meetings during which immigrants, victims of domestic abuse, and people with medical concerns will speak about their perspectives and concerns. I wonder how often they criticize politicians who hold private, media-excluded events with big donors? Jesus Christ, the inane vitriol against her is absurd.

I agree it is a little over the top but she does need to jockey to a new position to remain proactive with the media.

Some of the gaffs she has made remind me of Gary Johnson's "Aleppo" answer. There is just no taking that gaff back.

She is very proactive with the media - who didn't pay much attention to her before she won a primary two months ago and are now demanding they attend every single event she is part of. She did have some unfortunate gaffs, and she needs to burnish some talking points, but Gary Johnson was running for President - somewhat of a different realm. Either way, politicians make gaffs all the time. After all, you voted for the greatest gaff-maker in modern Presidential history!

Rudy Giuliani does not exist

It’s finally become philosophical.

Rudy Giuliani does not exist — Michael

That's a relief.

wow what a good day

I'm feeling some good vibes emanating from Mr. Mueller. The force is strong with him.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/22/worst-hour-for-trump-after-convictions-for-manafort-and-cohen

The outcomes also raised grave questions about Trump’s judgment. Since his election, his national security adviser, personal lawyer, campaign chairman, deputy campaign manager and a foreign policy aide have all admitted or been convicted of crimes.

At the risk of injecting a serious note into this farce, it seems to me that there is a useful distinction to be made between a witch-hunt, where you go looking for people who have committed imaginary crimes, and draining the swamp, where you investigate a series of perfectly ordinary and real crimes.

His reaction: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/22/michael-cohen-has-information-on-conspiracy-by-russians-says-lawyer

Guilty. And guilty. And implicated in so many things. Is this light at the end of the tunnel?

Is this light at the end of the tunnel? — tim wood

Oh yes, there is a light at the end of the tunnel where people who despise Trump, are dug in resisting everything. But his supporters are not in that tunnel and that light? That light is shinning from Trump's second term as President. :sparkle:

I understand the outrage of Mollie Tibbets family, against people making their tragic loss, a jumping off point to express the need for border control, as if it might have helped save their daughter.

I wish I could get people to understand just how pervasive living illegally in the USA is, how Social services are offered to all and there are no questions about their legal status.
E-VERIFY system is an AMAZING system when everybody plays by the rules.

Here in AZ E-VERIFY signs are in every window of anyone hiring. But this monster had a Social Security # which is not surprising as you can get a fake one here on the streets for less than a grand and then they are home free, for a while.

But in the heartland of America, where they don't lock their front doors? I just don't see employers in Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, New York, South Dakota ect. running an applicants information through the E-VERIFY system when they were presented with citizen documentation that satisfy the needs of legal resident employment.

Which brings up the issue of profiling because as an AZ resident, I have never been asked if I would qualify through the E-VERIFY system by a future employer but I am a middle aged white woman. If I was darker in skin tone, about 15 years younger and a man, I imagine I would be asked if I would qualify through the E-VERIFY system before being hired. The penalty for employing an illegal immigrant is nothing to screw around with. They are serious about it here in Arizona but as you can see by the map enclosed not every state requires an E-VERIFY verification.

A woman is far more likely to be murdered by a citizen, in particular a SO, rather than an undocumented immigrant. Obviously, it isn't possible to determine the number of undocumented immigrants living in the USA, but Texas does have a strong data set of criminal activities committed by undocumented immigrants. In seven years (2011-2018) of "175,000 illegal aliens" there were "225 homicide convictions".

The focus on the fact that Mollie Tibbets was killed by an undocumented immigrant, and the calls for expanded deportation, profiling, etc. is unabashed racism, pure and simple.

The focus on the fact that Mollie Tibbets was killed by an undocumented immigrant, and the calls for expanded deportation, profiling, etc. is unabashed racism, pure and simple. — Maw

How is it racism? :brow:
No one is calling for "expanded deportation" but rather better our immigration laws to bring people into our country based on merit and as a political asylum for those that seek asylum.
If we could control the illegal immigration, we would have more room for those who are seeking asylum.

Maw, do you lock your door at night?

If so, why is it so absurd to have a lock on the door (the border wall) to enter this country and make people be vetted before being allowed in?

Since you have not addressed the system that works E-Verify, let me remind you that all we need is participation, not resistance. This system is not in R&D, it is up and running and working when people participate.

If it is far less statistically likely for an undocumented immigrant to commit homicide, relative to an American citizen, then it follows that the paroxysm over immigration including profiling, deportation, and building a dumbass border wall is, undeniably, a racist response. And yes, one can easily find responses more radical than merely "bettering current immigration laws" on white nationalist media such as Fox News, Breitbart, and other vapid Right-Wing publications.

By the way, Tiff, the locking doors analogy implies that immigrants (from South America in particular) are merely here to "steal" from us, which is racist.

Oh yes, there is a light at the end of the tunnel where people who despise Trump, are dug in resisting everything. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That last line reads like a projection. You're the one unwilling to recognise you've naively voted in a racist crook as president. The crook part was also known before his presidency but white collar crime is simply rarely prosecuted (simply settled with fines). Except when you're president you can't go around like that anymore. So you're OK with racism and criminality from a white guy but those evil immigrants fuck everything up? Mollie Tibbets used to push lies

The simple fact you lap these kind of those stories up as uncritically true, combined with your irrational support for a racist are laying bare your bias.

When does support for a racist candidate and racist policy make you a racist yourself? Who would I have to vote for for you to conclude I'm a racist in your eyes? Your line seems to be somewhere slightly to the left of David Duke. I'm telling you that Trump is right next to the guy. From where I'm standing looking at you all I have is your denial you're a racist and your dislike of being labelled as one but if it walks and talks like a duck...

If you don't like being called a racist, then don't act like one. Sorry Tiff, but it has to be said and it's probably better you hear it from me than a random stranger.

If it is far less statistically likely for an undocumented immigrant to commit homicide, relative to an American citizen, then it follows that the paroxysm over immigration including profiling, deportation, and building a dumbass border wall is, undeniably, a racist response. — Maw

Maw, you can work the numbers all you want but your "statistics" do not include nor will it ever include the true number of illegal immigrants because they do NOT report. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

Think of it this way: you and I are under the legal drinking age of the state we reside in and we go to a party. At this party there is underage drinking, loud music, lots of cars, a couple of Kegs in the back, dancing and libations when a fight breaks out between two people in the yard and the cops are called. When that knock on the door comes along with the red and blue lights, where are you headed? Regardless of whether or not you or I were involved in the fight, now that the law is at the threshold of the residence where you and I are at but do not live, we are headed where?

Keeping in mind that both of us are well aware that we are not of legal drinking age but we are at a location where alcohol is being consumed illegally. Getting busted by the law for underage drinking is HUGE for those of us that are still underage. It usually means an attorney and a penalty/delay against gaining the chance of getting a drivers license.

Are you going to remain at the party and wait for the police to ask you for your ID? Or are you going to be fleeing the party like the majority of the other underage attendees?

And yes, one can easily find responses more radical than merely "bettering current immigration laws" on white nationalist media such as Fox News, Breitbart, and other vapid Right-Wing publications. — Maw

And conversely there are pundits out there spouting ending ICE and having a nation without borders but I am not suggesting that is what your ultimate solution is for bettering our immigration laws.

By the way, Tiff, the locking doors analogy implies that immigrants (from South America in particular) are merely here to "steal" from us, which is racist. — Maw

(I bolded your "immigrants" because I want to be sure that we are still talking about illegal immigrants because I have not a single issue if someone from another country is here legally. My Great Grands were immigrants but they had to wait and come here to the USA legally.)

I think that it is a HUGE, unfair leap, to suggest that by having better control over our nations borders implies that illegal immigrants "are here to merely steal from us".

Maw, I know people on both sides of this, both people here legally and illegally. I know that the illegal immigrant within our group of friends feels intimidated by the way our country treats the undocumented immigrants, yet she remains. She knows what it is like to only be able to work for cash at a Mexican Party store and works on beautiful dresses for young ladies Quinceañera's and makes a decent wage doing it. Of course that is paid in cash, no taxes submitted, though likely collected from her. She has to walk to work because driving is too risky in getting caught being here illegally. For a year when things really got heated here in AZ, with Sheriff Joe instructing our County Police force to profile (continuing 3 years beyond when a Judge ordered him to STOP the profiling) looking for illegal immigrants, she didn't come out of his house.

I ask her if she wishes she were American and she says no, she eventually wants to return to Mexico. When I ask her why she doesn't marry our friend in the group who is an American, the man she loves, the man she has lived with the last 15 years, the man who paid for her safe transport 6k, from central Mexico to a bus station in downtown Phoenix. She says no, she doesn't wish to marry our friend and for what it is worth, he does not wish to marry her for a multitude of reasons.

So their plan, in the event that she is ever picked up as being here as an illegal immigrant, is to deny knowing she is here illegally and allow the deportation proceedings to begin. She would likely be flown back to Central Mexico where her family lives. Our male friend who would deny knowing she was here illegally would not be charged, still maintain his USA citizenship and move to Mexico to join her and "retire" in Mexico while retaining his SS benefits for when he retires.

If there is any interest as to why he brought her up here illegally so many years ago, it is because our friend met her on a trip to Mexico and found out her boyfriend was physically beating her and her family was not stepping in, so he sent for her.

Back to the stats: if it turns out that our male friend is beating her, do you think she is going to report him to the authorities?

From where I'm standing looking at you all I have is your denial you're a racist and your dislike of being labelled as one but if it walks and talks like a duck...

If you don't like being called a racist, then don't act like one. Sorry Tiff, but it has to be said and it's probably better you hear it from me than a random stranger. — Benkei

Yes, hearing a dear friend of mine, who has truly known me through the years, call me a "racist" makes it "better".

If we can drop the labels, I am willing to engage if you wish...


Did you read the links contained within your link above? :brow:

Immigration and Crime
Assessing a Conflicted Issue
By Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan on November 18, 2009

Related Publications

Download a pdf of this Backgrounder


Steven A. Camarota is Director of Research and Jessica M. Vaughan is Director of Policy Studies at the Center for Immigration Studies.


Intro: This study examines academic and government research on the question of immigrant crime. New government data indicate that immigrants have high rates of criminality, while older academic research found low rates. The overall picture of immigrants and crime remains confused due to a lack of good data and contrary information. However, the newer government data indicate that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement to work with federal immigration authorities.

Conclusion: In our view, poor data quality and conflicting evidence mean that neither of these views is well supported. Given the limitations of the data available, it is simply not possible to draw a clear conclusion about immigrants and crime.

Maw, you can work the numbers all you want but your "statistics" do not include nor will it ever include the true number of illegal immigrants because they do NOT report. Why is that such a hard concept to understand? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

We are talking about homicides committed by convicted undocumented immigrants divided by total undocumented immigrants who have been charged with a crime. If we replace the number of undocumented immigrants who have been charged with criminal activity with the "true" yet unreported number of undocumented immigrants, then the percentage of undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of homicide becomes even more minuscule, thus further demonstrating how statistically improbable it is for someone to be killed by an undocumented immigrant. Congrats, you've proven my point.

And conversely there are pundits out there spouting ending ICE and having a nation without borders but I am not suggesting that is what your ultimate solution is for bettering our immigration laws. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

ICE was formed in 2003, and we didn't have open or chaotic borders prior to that. ICE ought to be ended; it has become an arm of a white nationalist administration.

I think that it is a HUGE, unfair leap, to suggest that by having better control over our nations borders implies that illegal immigrants "are here to merely steal from us". — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I was referring exclusively to undocumented immigrants. And it was YOU, Tiff, that brought up locking doors at night as a defensive analogy for the border wall. What was the analogy supposed to refer to, then, if not stealing or murdering? Why else would someone lock their door? Do they expect a criminal to walk in, sit on their couch and watch TV, maybe cook up some pasta and use their fine silverware?

Did you read the links contained within your link above? :brow: — ArguingWAristotleTiff

So the best you get back with is a link that says nothing is conclusive in 2009 and ignore the studies done since then in the same article? Have you read everything or is this the bias causing you to be selective again? At the very least even that article debunks your earlier post on Debbie but you seem to miss that point entirely.

Yes, hearing a dear friend of mine, who has truly known me through the years, call me a "racist" makes it "better". — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I and a number of other posters have been engaging you for years and I've seen a gradual shift to the right and into racist positions. You haven't been paying attention. Within a few weeks of the discussion on the separation, which was appaling (your reply : but immigration!) you come up with this canard about Debbie in the Trump thread. Why? Because racist bullshit is supposed to excuse the terrible policies Trump passes? To excuse his racism? "Oh look, here's one actual criminal immigrant so trump is right calling them rapists." I really don't know what it's doing in this thread. You're playing the same game of distraction as the current administration. Where is your Fucking outrage about Trump his cronies 'crimes? If you're so concerned about crime you ought to be consistent. The fact that you're not is because it isn't about crime for you but about immigration. So well done, you misuse a tragedy to argue a case for further restrictions that isn't supported by the evidence.

Now, you can take me calling your casual racism out seriously and reflect on your position with Debbie, Trump in general, the N-word he might have said and whether you'd vote for him again if he said it and how you reacted to the inhumane treatment by the US government of immigrants by separating children (including babies) from their parents or you can play the victim for being labelled a racist. You might not like the label but it's entirely apt. The fact you keep coming back with these alt-right talking points despite the opportunity here to learn the facts and your inability to do so is what betrays the underlying bias. I'm pointing it out in the clearest term possible by using a label : tiff you've become a racist. You weren't one 5 years ago but you are one now. People change and I'm telling you, you haven't changed for the better.

I and a number of other posters have been engaging you for years and I've seen a gradual shift to the right and into racist positions. — Benkei

I have very much enjoyed engaging with forum members in here as well as over at PF for over the last decade. I have had a gradual shift and am still in motion about many areas of philosophy and how that impacts change in my life. My words and thoughts are not always pretty but I do speak with personal honesty and I am sorry if that honesty hurts but if I stop and start playing games like go along with the crowd, I am faking it and that isn't me.

The first philosophical movement within me started with Tobias on the idea of "proportionality" and the response the USA had to 9/11. It was and still is a very hard thing to talk about but I was able to apply what Tobias suggested and have taken that tool - proportionality - and put it in my 'tool bag' that helps me with the balance of life and the curve balls that I have fielded and those still to come. In this very thread, my position has changed about the "Zero Tolerance" policy from being a necessity that was being dictated by laws that were on the books, to understanding what impact it was having and how we could change it. Obviously that was lost on you but that is okay because the introspect was into me and it wasn't lost on me.

You haven't been paying attention. Within a few weeks of the discussion on the separation, which was appaling (your reply : but immigration!) you come up with this canard about Debbie in the Trump thread. Why? Because racist bullshit is supposed to excuse the terrible policies Trump passes? To excuse his racism? "Oh look, here's one actual criminal immigrant so trump is right calling them rapists." I really don't know what it's doing in this thread. — Benkei

The reason I have posted anything about Trump on this thread is because it is the thread I have been participating in and if you read back the thousand something posts, you will see that every Trump supporter has been run off. Why? Even if you believe that everything Trump does is fucked up, that doesn't mean everyone does or has to agree with you.

You're playing the same game of distraction as the current administration. Where is your Fucking outrage about Trump his cronies 'crimes? If you're so concerned about crime you ought to be consistent. The fact that you're not is because it isn't about crime for you but about immigration. So well done, you misuse a tragedy to argue a case for further restrictions that isn't supported by the evidence. — Benkei

Benkei, even when I talk to the most staunch opposition to Trump within my group of family and friends, we are able to converse about it without feeling the need to use personal profanity attacks on one another. "Where is your Fucking outrage about Trump and his cronies 'crimes'? I have my personal issues with Trump but what his friends did is not one of them. I don't apologize for not being outraged about that one point but I must choose my battles. I won't participate in feigned outrage.

Now, you can take me calling your casual racism out seriously and reflect on your position with Debbie, Trump in general, the N-word he might have said and whether you'd vote for him again if he said it and how you reacted to the inhumane treatment by the US government of immigrants by separating children (including babies) from their parents or you can play the victim for being labelled a racist. — Benkei

I am not a victim nor am I a racist. But I can tell you that the divide you see actively happening here, between two people who have been friends for almost a decade? That is the cut that is dividing much of our country. It indeed is about policy but it is also about looking for a solution, together, not bashing and labeling each other. I would think our friendship could rise above the fray of politics but I am not the one seeing you in a dark, racist manner.

You might not like the label but it's entirely apt. The fact you keep coming back with these alt-right talking points despite the opportunity here to learn the facts and your inability to do so is what betrays the underlying bias. — Benkei

I kept returning because I believe in our country and this thread becomes an echo chamber without a single voice about what might be the other side of the perspective you are seeing.

I'm pointing it out in the clearest term possible by using a label : tiff you've become a racist. You weren't one 5 years ago but you are one now. People change and I'm telling you, you haven't changed for the better. — Benkei

I Thank you for your honesty.

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

The latest news is that Trump has been photographed colouring in the American flag incorrectly, possibly copying the child sitting next to him, and has seemingly confused a 52% disapproval rating for a 52% approval rating, which he then bragged about on Twitter.

From the New York Times: A long-awaited analysis of Hurricane Maria’s deadly sweep through Puerto Rico prompted the government on Tuesday to sharply increase the official death toll. The government now estimates that 2,975 people died as a result of the disaster and its effects, which unfolded over months

Never forget that the Mayor of San Juan repeatedly begged Trump for additional help and resources in the aftermath of Hurricane Maria, and Trump lashed out and her. He called Maria, "not a real catastrophe" and infamously threw paper towels to Puerto Ricans. He praised relief efforts for doing a wonderful job, and told a Puerto Rican family who showed him their damaged house to "have a good time".

I think it's time to take on the realization that Trump is not the president of the US, rather he is simply an unusual criminal who talked his way into the office. Nothing that comes out of his mouth, or out of his administration, means anything. (Disagree? Review what he's said. What does what he said mean?) It is no longer enough to wring one's hands at what the "president" said. Instead it is an American's business to pay attention to what the criminal said and has said - and done.

As to what he has said and done; who runs him? I think he has made it clear over years that he is simply unable to mount the kind of offensive that he has all by by himself. Who runs him? Ultimately I do not think it matters too much. If we ever prove it was Russia, we're not going to war. We can make our displeasure known in a number of effective ways, but over-all we can only say to them, "well played!"

But to Trump and his, he is a traitor engaged in treason. He and his deserve the most sever penalties the law can impose.

Anyone who disagrees, please make sense of almost two year's of revelations, such that we can all be reassured he is not a traitor.

I kept returning because I believe in our country and this thread becomes an echo chamber without a single voice about what might be the other side of the perspective you are seeing. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

So you actually believe that Trump is good for our country, or democracy in general?

So you actually believe that Trump is good for our country, or democracy in general? — praxis

Praxis, while your inquiry maybe well intended, I feel comfortable in saying that, I am not sure what I feel comfortable in talking about here, when it comes to our President and my beliefs.
As a result of such discussion, I may have indeed lost a dear friend and forum member, of over a decade, in trying to explain my perspective and explore other's perspectives. That was not the intention of my sharing but I cannot control how others feel about me and for a while I was and am still having a hard time dealing with labels that are being applied to me.

My fellow forum members that I have grown to know, many I genuinely love and respect as friends since 2007, are going to be members long after this executive term of our democracy has been written.
For me? One friend, is one too many in this life and as I have said before, "let us not destroy in leaving what have we built together in coming" and that applies to myself as well.

I feel comfortable in saying that, I am not sure what I feel comfortable in talking about here, when it comes to our President and my beliefs. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

If you were comfortable with your insecurity then you'd be open to discussing your beliefs. That's what being comfortable means in this context. But I suppose you mean that you're comfortable taking a self-protective position. You should not be, particularly on a philosophy forum where the pursuit of truth is paramount. That includes the truth of your beliefs and the truth of your relationships.