• praxis
    1.4k
    I don’t think anyone is opposed to immigration reform. Unfortunate that our divider-in-chief puts all his energy into fulfilling a stupid campaign promise.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    I don’t think anyone is opposed to immigration reform. Unfortunate that our divider-in-chief puts all his energy into fulfilling a stupid campaign promise.praxis

    heart breaking....absolutely heart breaking....
    With all due respect praxis, our immigration system has been broken for many administrations.
    I really don't give a flying fuck as to who is at the helm right now, the boat is sinking and I, a nurturer by nature, am running out of buckets to bail water with.
  • Benkei
    2k
    How do you explain the year on year reduction of illegal entry in the US through the border if the system is broken?

    https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Selected_Unauthorized_Immigration_Statistics.png#mw-jump-to-license
  • praxis
    1.4k


    An administration dedicated to immigration reform would stand a better chance of achieving reform, I would think.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    How do you explain the year on year reduction of illegal entry in the US through the border if the system is broken?Benkei

    Benkei, you are such a logical person did you follow a single link I provided with data as current as yesterday? How can you logic through 18,500 people being let into our community and not understand that we have a problem?

    There are two logical ways for me to explain the massive influx at this time, during this administration but they are two very different explanations.

    The first is that the message has been sent from President Trump that he plans on enforcing the border laws that are already on the books that past administrations have been guided by as well. And he is going to continue building the miles of barrier, various in nature, situational dependent, as past administrations have done. The difference? This President has attempted to follow through and do everything he can, in HIS power (Executive power), to secure our border.

    The second explanation is: the corrupt civil wars in the countries south of the USA has gotten so bad that it's citizens are fleeing in fear of their lives. If that is true: then why would they not claim asylum in the very next country they enter?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    An administration dedicated to immigration reform would stand a better chance of achieving reform, I would think.praxis

    I agree with that idea. I just don't know how we go about getting this back under control, to do anything other than try to make sure the people let into our communities survive.

    I am desperately trying to sound the alarm bell that we are going under.
  • tim wood
    3k
    So now I ask you:
    What is the problem as you see it? And what is the solution?
    ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I start with the axiom that there are some irreducible truths, of the sort, for example from physics, that water is incompressible. Nothing complicated here but keeping in mind that real-world problems should be expressible in real-world terms, the solutions for which should be equally real-world; and that probably they concern certain irreducible facts that ought to be accurately determined and expressed.

    Let's start with, "necessity knows no law." Again, rocket science not intended. The idea is the acknowledgement that folks can and will under certain conditions do things you and I, not subject to those conditions, do not want them to do.

    Grant that and we're guided to why they do it. Per news that I am exposed to, people risk their's and their family's lives and well-being to crash our borders because that, risk included, is better then staying home. Find a clue here?

    In very short, we send a diplomat and a soldier to the governments of those countries and say to them that they are creating problems for us, and our message to them is that they fix the problem, or we will!(!!!)

    Meanwhile, are we so wretched and poor in both means and character that it monsters us to have a five-year-old ask for help and we not provide it?

    Even a moment's thought - I mean real thinking - reveals that the current discussion is nothing about solving and everything about posturing, not mattering what evil is accomplished.

    Edit: your problem, then, notwithstanding your discomfiture, is not with desperate people, but with governments that are not doing the job, or even trying to.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    Even a moment's thought - I mean real thinking - reveals that the current discussion is nothing about solving and everything about posturing, not mattering what evil is accomplished.tim wood

    All I can do is ask you to read what I put up as I read what you do. At some point you might see the crisis.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    Edit: your problem, then, notwithstanding your discomfiture, is not with desperate people, but with governments that are not doing the job, or even trying to.tim wood

    What an insult to those who are on the front lines of this crisis. To suggest that they, government workers, CBP are not trying to do their jobs?
    What an insight from the top of the ivory tower... :down:
  • praxis
    1.4k
    All I can do is ask you to read what I put up as I read what you do. At some point you might see the crisis.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    From the article:
    Stancliff said now families must often spend a couple nights in Phoenix as they reach out to relatives and friends who can arrange travel. They often stay with volunteers as they wait for their buses or planes to depart. In that time, they need food, shelter, clean clothes and showers — a big undertaking for local churches and volunteers.

    “It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    From the article:praxis

    “It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”

    Thank you for at least reading what I am posting. I greatly appreciate it. The perception of a crisis is in the eye of those charged with handling the it. For me? The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.2k
    While I am not wildly enthusiastic about millions of people migrating across our borders for jobs or asylum, there are certainly reasons why this is happening. First, the US has a long history of fucking over Central American and other countries south of the Rio Grande. We've interfered on behalf of United Fruit and other corporations, as well as various banana republic fascists and their friends. So it is not at all surprising that these countries are in bad shape in ever so many ways.

    Secondly, we are singularly an economic and civil beacon on a hill. Where else are dissatisfied people going to go--Venezuela?

    Third, this is our Dress Rehearsal for far larger future population movements owing to global warming. The closer one is to the equator, the sooner and the worse it will be for heat, weather, crop failures, diseases, etc. Europe has had its dress rehearsal, as have a bunch of other places. Bangladesh is so pleased with the Rohingya flood, that they are thinking of moving them to a large sand bar in the Bay of Bengal where conditions will be even worse than where they are now.

    NOBODY LIKES MASS POPULATION MOVEMENT!!! Certainly not the people who are forced by fascism, war, heat, drought, and starvation, and certainly not the relatively poor people a thousand miles up the highway who aren't that much better off.
  • S
    11.3k
    What does anyone else think of this?OpinionsMatter

    I think that colouring text green in an attempt to idiot-proof sarcasm is a brilliant idea. What genius thought that one up? Someone ought to give him a medal.

    Also, obviously, I'm very much against Trump and the conservatives regarding their opposition to the Special Olympics.
  • praxis
    1.4k
    Trump saves the Special Olympics. <color: green>Our hero!</color: green>

  • Baden
    8.4k


    The I'll-see-what-I-can-get-away-with-and-if-I-can't-turn-it-into-a-win-anyway president.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    6k
    The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    That's barely more than 200 people a day. If the great, and wealthy USA does not have the resources available to process 200 immigrants a day, then perhaps that's where the problem lies. I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude?
  • S
    11.3k
    I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude?Metaphysician Undercover

    You could ask Tiff and others like her. But I don't expect that many people here will share her alarmist way of reacting to matters such as this. I mean, really, who sees immigration and thinks, "Civil war!!!! Who will help us!?!?!?" :scream:
  • Benkei
    2k
    18,500 peopleArguingWAristotleTiff

    Legal or illegal?
  • S
    11.3k
    Legal or illegal?Benkei

    Does that distinction matter to her, or doesn't it? And if so, for what reason? These are important related questions.

    My struggle is not with legal immigrants, it is with the illegal immigrants.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    (I bolded your "immigrants" because I want to be sure that we are still talking about illegal immigrants because I have not a single issue if someone from another country is here legally.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I don't give a flying fig if someone is here legally or not, UNTIL they break the law.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Illegal or not, our community cannot handle the influx at the rate that we are looking at.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    As evidenced above, she has made a number of contradictory statements. Which does she stand by, if any? She can't have her cake and eat it.

    And regarding her point about crime:

    I believe there are a number of studies that claim to show immigrants, including illegal immigrants, commit crimes at a lower rate than the native-born. You can Google as well as I can. I agree that if there is an underreporting issue, which is plausible, it might be difficult, but not impossible, to correct for that.Srap Tasmaner

    What's your real issue with here, Tiff? I suspect that it is veiled under rationalisations. Your rationalisations have been countered each time. Whether you like it or not, you do not have the upper hand in this debate. Instead of taking everything so personally, why not absorb what is being said and use it to work on your critical thinking skills to either improve your arguments, or, better yet, reject them?

    Is it an irrational fear? An irrational protectiveness? "Won't somebody think of the children!?!?". :scream:
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    While I am not wildly enthusiastic about millions of people migrating across our borders for jobs or asylum, there are certainly reasons why this is happening. First, the US has a long history of fucking over Central American and other countries south of the Rio Grande. We've interfered on behalf of United Fruit and other corporations, as well as various banana republic fascists and their friends. So it is not at all surprising that these countries are in bad shape in ever so many ways.Bitter Crank

    I am trying to embrace the idea of where we have come from to where we are BC. I have spent the last year in school and am blown away by the civil wars that have taken place within my lifetime that I had no recognition of. I say this not because I am proud of my ignorance or naivety but now as I push forward into social work, patterns of societies evolutions appear, many of which we have had to follow in depth. Now, there is nothing that I can do about what I missed in the past but I can push forward now to make sure tragedies like these don't happen again. To just give two examples of what is driving me is studying two mass exodus of people: that of the Sudan war which caused the flee to Ethiopia and Colombian Holocaust.
    Forgive me when I see acts such as this at my border: I see the beginnings of the Lost Boys of Sudan and I do not want any mislead by our politicians thinking that our desert between here and there is any less dangerous.


    Secondly, we are singularly an economic and civil beacon on a hill. Where else are dissatisfied people going to go--Venezuela?Bitter Crank
    That is actually something I have pondered. If everyone is leaving Venezuela then maybe it would be easier for us to relocate to there and let them have the USA.

    Third, this is our Dress Rehearsal for far larger future population movements owing to global warming. The closer one is to the equator, the sooner and the worse it will be for heat, weather, crop failures, diseases, etc. Europe has had its dress rehearsal, as have a bunch of other places. Bangladesh is so pleased with the Rohingya flood, that they are thinking of moving them to a large sand bar in the Bay of Bengal where conditions will be even worse than where they are now.Bitter Crank

    Because of the sheer mass of people, a year ago we were able to hold folks long enough AND the system was not overwhelmed we checked for diseases and criminal records of those wanting into the USA. Now? We have no idea what diseases were are dealing with nor what someone's criminal record is.

    NOBODY LIKES MASS POPULATION MOVEMENT!!! Certainly not the people who are forced by fascism, war, heat, drought, and starvation, and certainly not the relatively poor people a thousand miles up the highway who aren't that much better off.Bitter Crank

    Bitter, I am becoming much more aware of the driving forces and the conditions people are fleeing and I am trying to move myself into the position of those who are in need. I am at a blending point, trying to find the in between of what can be done to help and when we have to admit that we are putting, everyone along this journey at such a risk when it comes to the summer here. I realize that before I was advocating policy from an administrations perspective only but now? I have seen what bs is spewed around the world to get people to move out of where they are to another land. I am moving to advocate for the asylum seekers but the logic of what I see is failing and before we have people dying from the heat, I move to do something now.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    That's barely more than 200 people a day. If the great, and wealthy USA does not have the resources available to process 200 immigrants a day, then perhaps that's where the problem lies. I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude?Metaphysician Undercover

    Here are some numbers for you to compress and tell me that America can handle it.
    The number of migrant families crossing the southwest border has once again broken records, with unauthorized entries nearly double what they were a year ago, suggesting that the Trump administration’s aggressive policies have not discouraged new migration to the United States.

    More than 76,000 migrants crossed the border without authorization in February, an 11-year high and a strong sign that stepped-up prosecutions, new controls on asylum and harsher detention policies have not reversed what remains a powerful lure for thousands of families fleeing violence and poverty.

    I'm sure the money's there, what's with the attitude?Metaphysician Undercover
    The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    Legal or illegal?Benkei

    Those who crossed our nations border illegally.
    Benk, I am begging you to read this link.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    What's your real issue with here, Tiff?S

    Damn, I ran out of time.
  • S
    11.3k
    Damn, I ran out of time.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    That's alright. It was more of a rhetorical question anyway. I don't expect you'd be conscious of the real reasons. Some of us are just better at introspection and at reading people than others. I think it comes naturally to me. Obviously, not everyone is going to like it when I hold a mirror up to them. That's because it often differs from the idealised construct we've built of ourselves.
  • Bitter Crank
    8.2k
    The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    That's a big piece of the problem: No locality (city, county, state) can afford to absorb and assist millions of immigrants, asylum seekers, opportunists, and so forth. And what comes across the southern border is not the total of in-coming people. There are the effects that large numbers of non-English speaking immigrants without high-industrial skills have on wages, especially in the low-pay sector. The desperate people may not be criminals, but human smugglers are. Since they are illegal (and outside of the taxation and social welfare systems) they place a greater burden on schools, housing, emergency rooms and public clinics, and so on.

    The other thing is social consent: if we didn't agree your coming here, why should we accept and assist you? Of course, the people coming here didn't agree to drug gangs, fascist execution squads, or deep poverty, either.

    It's a conundrum to which I don't have an answer that satisfies my own ethical system.
  • Benkei
    2k
    A number of reports published by CIS have been described as false or misleading by scholars on immigration, fact-checkers such as PolitiFact, FactCheck.Org, Snopes, media outlets such as Washington Post, CNN and NBC News, and immigration-research organizations. John Tanton who founded CIS was opposed because of racist reasons. So what can I say when you don't bother to check out your sources. - copied or abbreviated from wikipedia

    Fact of the matter is illegal immigrants are a fraction of what it used to be as immigrants report to the authorities almost immediately in most cases. So you can hardly claim that is the issue with US immigration policy.
  • S
    11.3k
    Yes, but who cares about drug gangs, fascist execution squads, and deep poverty when you have an imagined civil war to fret over from your relatively large and safe estate, in a state with a relatively good median household income of somewhere in the region of $52,000 - $56,000, in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, roughly somewhere within or just outside of the top ten in the world. Even though there hasn't been a civil war since the civil war of 1861 - 1865, which ended around 154 years ago.

    Get a sense of perspective, man! Kick Jonny Foreigner out and arm yourself to the teeth, like a polite and concerned citizen of the USA.
  • Arkady
    762
    The coffers are emptyArguingWAristotleTiff
    Then seems like a bad time for Trump to be cutting taxes, wouldn't you say?
  • Bitter Crank
    8.2k
    Hey, I not only have my Medium Income, distant civil war, wealthier country of the world (of which my share is about zip), and living in my castle in a state bordering on Canada, but I'm getting fairly old, so all this crap will soon enough no longer be my problem. Unless, of course, I live another 30 years. L'horreur, l'horreur! Should I start drinking a lot more and take up smoking again to move things along? Eat more animal fat? Cut out fiber? Stop eating fresh fruits and vegetables? Stop exercising? Hey, it would be a lot cheaper to cut out the good stuff, and I'll need more money if I start smoking, cigarettes are over $8 a pack, $160+ for a carton.
  • S
    11.3k
    Cigarettes?! Who cares about cigarettes when civil war is fast approaching!?! Just because it is a product of my imagination, that's no excuse not to take it extremely seriously. Not only are we faced with the alarming prospect of an imaginary civil war, I imagine that we'll have no allies in this imaginary war! Who will save the good citizens of the United States of America from the entirely imagined horrors of an imaginary civil war?! Do you intend to stand idly by, cigarette in hand, whilst imaginary bombs fall and imaginary bullets fly by?!

    And what about the children? Won't somebody think of the children?! At least share your cigarettes with them. Have you no conscience?
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