• Arkady
    762
    Some states have laws mandating that their electors vote for the candidate that received the most electoral votes. I believe that electors voting for someone else is a rare occurrence, and I don't know to what extent such laws have been challenged in court. States are generally given broad latitude to run their elections as they see fit (even moreso in the light of the recent Supreme Court decision striking down provisions of the Voting Rights Act), but I don't know if such elector laws would be adjudicated to fall within the states' purview to conduct elections. If not, they could potentially be struck down.
  • tim wood
    2.4k
    This is no simple subject. But notwithstanding any law - and I believe the states control their electors - I cannot imagine any elector accepting the notion that his or her vote was purely a rubber stamp and nothing else. Pretty clearly almost all understand that crossing the popular vote is an invitation for trouble, but as I understand their purpose for being, it is exactly to take on that trouble, when and if it seems the better course.Arkady
  • S
    10.2k
    ...suggests a significant failure of the system.tim wood

    You could add a whole load of stuff to complete that sentence. The U.S. needs a revolution.
  • Rank Amateur
    1.6k
    The base debate at the creation of the US was the role/power of the the Central government in relation to the power of the individual states. The creation of the electoral college was in relation to this. The less populated states feared that the heavily populated states could dominate a popular election and thereby impose undo power on the less populated states. The electoral college was a way to mitigate that imbalance.
  • S
    10.2k
    The base debate at the creation of the US was the role/power of the the Central government in relation to the power of the individual states. The creation of the electoral college was in relation to this. The less populated states feared that the heavily populated states could dominate a popular election and thereby impose undo power on the less populated states. The electoral college was a way to mitigate that imbalance.Rank Amateur

    Nevertheless, look what has happened. Clearly it has faults which warrant going back to the drawing board.
  • frank
    2.5k
    The New Zealand and Austrailian nazis need to settle down.
  • Relativist
    645
    FYI - In 2016 there were 10 "faithless electors" who tried to vote against the candidate to whom they were pledged. 3 of these votes were invalidated, and 7 of them were validated. This Wikipedia article has the details.
  • Anaxagoras
    349


    Not so easy considering that white nationalism is a growing problem.
  • Wayfarer
    7.4k
    I never thought Trump literally conspired with Russia, so it doesn't surprise me. That only leaves obvious incompetence, narcissistic personality disorder, abandonment of conservative principles, and complete unfitness for office as sufficient causes to be removed.
  • ProbablyTrue
    192
    The base debate at the creation of the US was the role/power of the the Central government in relation to the power of the individual states. The creation of the electoral college was in relation to this. The less populated states feared that the heavily populated states could dominate a popular election and thereby impose undo power on the less populated states. The electoral college was a way to mitigate that imbalance.Rank Amateur

    You're stuck with either tyranny of the majority or tyranny of the minority. I'll take the majority.
  • Rank Amateur
    1.6k
    You're stuck with either tyranny of the majority or tyranny of the minority. I'll take the majorityProbablyTrue

    The issue is deeper. The fear is that a handful of populous states could, through an exercise of federal power, overrule issues states see as their job.

    There is a designed tension between the federal government and the state governments. And on balance this is IMO a good thing.
  • Maw
    1.3k
    That's a summary of the report from AG Barr, not from Mueller. The summary also said that Trump has not been exonerated. We need the full report.
  • Evil
    113
    How to access the full report?
  • Maw
    1.3k
    You'll have to ask Barr for now lol
  • ProbablyTrue
    192
    The fear is that a handful of populous states could, through an exercise of federal power, overrule issues states see as their job.Rank Amateur

    Again, it's one of two options. There are no other choices. The less-populous states get their balance from the senate and congress.
  • Evil
    113
    Barr, would I be able to look at the Mueller report please, thanks
  • Evil
    113
    So what the fuck has been going on in those secretive meetings (since 2017) between Trump and Putin?
  • OpinionsMatter
    85
    The Special Olympics suck...waste of time and money!

    Or at least, that apparently is what the Trump administration thinks.

    Education Secretary, Betsy DeVos certainly feels okay with that sentiment…even though she was not able to estimate the number of kids who would be impacted by the $18,000,000 in cuts. (272,000 is the number.)

    Hey…it was a worthwhile trade-off for the Trump people. The very wealthy got large tax cuts…and the kids, who don't even vote, got screwed.

    Sounds like par for the course to me.

    I understand that green fonts denote sarcasm in Internet postings.

    Don't have font colors here...so, if it is not too much trouble, color this post GREEN!
    - @Frank Apisa
    What does anyone else think of this?
  • Frank Apisa
    734
    Or at least, that apparently is what the Trump administration thinks.

    Education Secretary, Betsy DeVos certainly feels okay with that sentiment…even though she was not able to estimate the number of kids who would be impacted by the $18,000,000 in cuts. (272,000 is the number.)

    Hey…it was a worthwhile trade-off for the Trump people. The very wealthy got large tax cuts…and the kids, who don't even vote, got screwed.

    Sounds like par for the course to me.

    I understand that green fonts denote sarcasm in Internet postings.

    Don't have font colors here...so, if it is not too much trouble, color this post GREEN!

    - Frank Apisa
    What does anyone else think of this?
    OpinionsMatter

    I like it!

    But that figures.

    Thanks for posting it here, OM. I did not realize there was a single place for these kinds of posts.
  • OpinionsMatter
    85

    No problem! I had it formatted to green for you as well, but unfortunately when I copied and pasted it didn't stay green.
  • Frank Apisa
    734
    No problem! I had it formatted to green for you as well, but unfortunately when I copied and pasted it didn't stay green.OpinionsMatter

    Thanks. (With a big smile on my face.)
  • unenlightened
    3.6k
    How to access the full report?Evil

    You could ask the Russians.
  • Wayfarer
    7.4k
    Beyond the [Mueller] report, there’s plenty of evidence that Trump has collaborated with Russia against the U.S. government. He has shilled for Vladimir Putin, urged Russia to hack Hillary Clinton’s emails, defended a secret meeting to get Russian dirt on her, attacked U.S. intelligence agencies that documented Russia’s election interference, and fired the FBI director who was investigating that interference. All of these betrayals are recorded or acknowledged on video.

    And Russia is just the beginning of the story. Trump’s treachery goes well beyond his service to Moscow. Transcripts, videos, and government records show that he has repeatedly collaborated with tyrants against our country. He has defended North Korea’s Kim Jong-un against U.S. intelligence that shows Kim is lying about his nuclear programs. He has defended Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince, against American intelligence that exposes the crown prince’s role in the murder of a U.S. resident. He has sided with Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, against American generals and U.S. law enforcement. He has declared that the Chinese government is more honorable than the American Democratic Party.

    Trump’s treachery goes way beyond Russia
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    I ask once again, is anyone here willing to believe me that we have an issue at my States Southern border?
    The last time I tried to bring this topic up it was met with dismissal because my citations and sources were biased, Jay Sekulow ring a bell?

    Please tell me something my fellow 'thinkers' what it is going to take before someone actually deals with the facts and tries not to continue to spread the bs that nothing is wrong and the problems my state is facing are a "manufactured crisis"?
    And I ask this for obvious reasons but also because of a genuine question I asked at the old sandbox and the shocking answers I was met with. My question was: In the event of a civil war breaking out in the USA, who is going to offer to come and help us? If one side of the civil war is accusing the other side of deeply nefarious activities such as the use of chemical weapons or other war crimes, who, what country represented here on the boards would believe the American citizen enough to come into our country and help us?

    The answer was a resounding no one. Not a single country, or forum member was willing to step up to help the Americans, for whatever their reason, it was a nope. The only country that was willing was suggested by (I want to say @ssu) was Canada and even then it wasn't that they would move troops in but rather Canada would be able to offer medical services, maybe?

    The proverbial popcorn bucket that nations around the world have been sharing and enjoying as they watch the USA, at times sounding hopeful, that the USA would implode is empty. Empty like every churches coffer in Arizona who is dealing with an undeniable crisis, it is not over and it is getting hot. Not Springtime in Minnesota hot, not even the oppressive heat in Atlanta in the middle of July. No, the heat is on and Mother Nature can be wicked here in the desert. We are on set to have one of the worst fire seasons on record and we as a state are not at a breaking point but we are broken. Asylum seekers are being released on their "OR" and that stands for something @Hanover could better explain but it stands for your "Own Recognizance" and in practical terms, it means your signature is your promise to be released while you await your court date.

    We cannot absorb what we are being met with, we are no longer treading water, we have slipped under the surface and are barely able to make it back for air.

    We cannot absorb all those seeking asylum here in the USA, many passing through two countries that they could claim asylum in but they are here and what do we do now?

    What is more inhumane? Closing down the border until we can retain some sense of order or is it more humane to shuttle thousands of people up to the Greyhound Bus Stop in Phoenix, dropping them off with no food, no money and no plan? The heat is coming folks and for those that make it into Phoenix, I am sorry to tell them that we are so overfilled that we are no longer able to care for our own let alone more.

    Immoral?
    Reality?

    Or will I again be dismissed in my assertions because the presses "story" doesn't jive with what someone, many of you have known personally for over a decade, is saying?

    (I normally would say that I am "sorry" for expressing something so bluntly but the lack of faith in my word by fellow members has impacted me ever so slightly)
  • tim wood
    2.4k
    If I may. Apparently you are describing a real problem. As to the scope/dimension of your real problem, I in Mass. have no way to judge, other than news. So I do not question that you have a real problem, but I must question it's overall size, nature, structure.

    A problem, maybe at the moment the problem, is our sorry excuse for a leader whose lies are so many that nothing that comes out of his mouth, or the mouths of those who serve him, may be regarded as being in any way true. Even when he accidentally does say something true! And these same liars have so polarized and poisoned the discussion that at best we operate within the fallacy of false alternatives.

    But let's try an exercise, if you will, the kind of exercise propaedeutic to the enterprise of establishing exactly what the problem is, so that it - the problem - may be as exactly solved as possible. If this sounds like something from quality management, it is, and adopted here.

    The expression of the problem ought to provide some guidance to a real-world solution to the problem. Setting your problem aside, then, perhaps to be merged in a more general expression, what do you say the problem is, exactly?

    "[R]eal-world solution to the problem" because it's a common experience to lay out both a problem and a solution, and then to go out and solve or try to solve some other problem. In the opinions of many including myself, the wall is just such a miss-guided solution.

    Have a go: what's the problem? How would you solve it?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    Have a go: what's the problem? How would you solve it?tim wood

    The problem? The inability for the United States government to reform our immigration laws and the message that inability to compromise is sending to those who may wish to seek asylum in the USA. The message being conveyed is get in now before the border closes. We, in the state of Arizona have our own vulnerable population that is in need.

    The solution? We have a saying out here on the ranch that might have made it to quality control before that explains how the solution I have and the one that we can achieve now are two very different things.
    The saying is: "That horse has already left the barn." There is no way, NO WAY to go back to my suggested solutions.

    You may hold the opinion that "the wall" is a "mis-guided solution" and you are absolutely entitled to it.
    However, I said NOTHING about "the wall" in this discussion, you did.
    So now I ask you:
    What is the problem as you see it? And what is the solution?

    And, since you decided to respond: how does the idea that not a single country represented would help the USA in the event of a civil war impact you?

    Surely that response would restore your faith in humanity, right?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    Apparently you are describing a real problemtim wood

    So one vote in that this is still an "apparent" crisis to only me.
    unreal :broken:
    What is it going to take to get the point across? For more people to die because we cannot accommodate them?
    Jesus, God in Heaven....115* heat for more than 45 days at a time only dropping to 90* at night?

    Maybe do a bit of fact finding about how people die in AZ in less than 12 hours of exposure and I am being VERY generous as to how long it takes.

    I hope and pray it doesn't get to the point that you need bodies in the street, like in the Parishes in New Orleans to know that the levy actually did break.

    Tell me where your check and balances are in logic please. They are not based in facts unless someone reports it or you see it for yourself? Come on down, I have friends in Yuma that you can stay with to get a first hand look at the reality playing out before our eyes.
    Game? And if not, why?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.5k
    @tim wood And if you have a child who would like to attend an AZ University? You will continue to be charged the fee of being an out of state student and those here undocumented will pay the much lower AZ resident price. Are you starting to see the ripples in your logic?
    We cannot handle this
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.