So I'm still trying to figure out what Trump's goal is in denying the validity of the election. — Hippyhead

Pure desperation.

I’m not sure Trump’s ascension to power was set up by Obama’s presidency so much as by Hillary’s candidacy... — Todd Martin

Agree. Hillary Clinton seemed uniquely hated by a lot of people. But there was also a strange confluence of circumstances that conspired to see Trump elected. And when he was elected, he was utterly surprised by it. According to Michael Wolff's Fire and Fury, 'Melania cried bitter tears' when it became clear he'd won. Trump looked like a poker player with a pair of two's who had just been called.

But surely a girl like Melania would dry her tears, and revel in the persona of the greatest beauty of the free world; why else would she have married a Donald Trump in the first place?

No, my take is that she realised she would suddenly be a public person, almost like public property. Rich American sugar-daddy is one thing, being on display in the public eye with every utterance being judged is something else altogether. Besides, she probably knew that it would all end in tears, which it surely is.

Meanwhile, news that Trump's attempt to persuade Michigan's GOP to over-ride the popular vote has failed.

President Trump on Friday suffered another blow to his unprecedented effort to undo the election results when a delegation of Michigan Republicans, after meeting with Mr. Trump at the White House, said that they would “follow the normal process” in certifying the vote results and honor the outcome.

President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. won Michigan, and a state board is scheduled to consider certifying the vote on Monday.

While Mr. Trump has made baseless charges of voter fraud in Michigan and elsewhere, Michigan’s top two Republican lawmakers — who had been summoned to the White House by the president — said after the meeting that they had “not yet been made aware of any information that would change the outcome of the election” in the state. In a statement, they vowed not to interfere with the certification process.

“As legislative leaders, we will follow the law and follow the normal process regarding Michigan’s electors, just as we have said throughout this election,” said the two officials, Mike Shirkey, the leader of the State Senate, and Lee Chatfield, the speaker of the State House.

“Michigan’s certification process should be a deliberate process free from threats and intimidation,” they added. “Allegations of fraudulent behavior should be taken seriously, thoroughly investigated, and if proven, prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And the candidates who win the most votes win elections and Michigan’s 16 electoral votes. These are simple truths that should provide confidence in our elections.”

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/11/20/us/joe-biden-trump/michigan-lawmakers-after-meeting-with-trump-reaffirm-that-they-will-honor-the-states-vote

Maybe her tears resulted from the unfaithfulness of her husband, who she knew was having sexual relations with professional prostitutes, even while she was pregnant with his last son.

Maybe that, too. Although I had the impression that this would be expected, part of the contract. If you're going to hook a billionaire, it comes with the territory.

Good point.

God forbid that normal rules apply to billionaires. The ease with which you assume all this is unfortunately true for too many people.

Not saying there's anything good about it. I'm just saying that I think the reason Melania shed tears when Trump won the Presidency, is because she didn't want to be married to a President because of the responsibility it entailed. That's just my instinct about it.

Or she was having her Cassandra moment and since Orestes has not yet returned may have in her sight things we cannot see.

Why the fuss about the gormless bimbo.

What about Little Boots?

Yeah, I'll tune in for the divorce for some schadenfreude. Otherwise couldn't give a fuck.

...and the little guy watching all the machinations and taking it all in? What's his world look like?

A bad movie, probably.

Trump Supporters in Georgia Threaten to Destroy GOP, Boycott Runoff Elections

Go on, do it. Give the Dems the last 2 Senators they need to take the Senate.

A US District Court judge Saturday dismissed a lawsuit by the Trump campaign trying to invalidate millions of Pennsylvania mail-in votes in a significant loss for the campaign. — CNN

This was the case that Giuliani was sweating blood hair dye over, with all the nonsense about Venezuelan voting software. The 30th- yes, you read that right, thirtieth - lawsuit filed by the Trump campaign that has been tossed by a judge on grounds of having no merit. Needless to say, nothing will ever stop Trump tweeting that the election was rigged, and a fair proportion of Americans from believing it, but at least he’s up against something he can’t bullshit his way out of.

Trump’s really acting like the guy who, when a girlfriend dumps him, throws acid in her face so that nobody else will like her - ‘if I can’t have her, nobody else can, either.’ :grimace:

Prior to the election, Ivanka, who is Jewish, was seen praying by the late Lubavitcher Rebbe's grave. https://www.israelhayom.com/2020/10/26/ivanka-trump-prays-at-lubavitcher-rebbes-grave-ahead-of-us-election/

From 1981, the Rebbe's view of US elections:

You can't make this stuff up.

Cool guy. :clap:

Btw, give me some insight, what do Georgians think of Sidney Powell's latest conspiracy theory that Dominion paid Brian Kemp to illegally add a shit-ton of votes to Biden's tally and of her threat to "blow up" Georgia with a "Biblical" lawsuit. It's National Enquirer "Aliens ate my baby"-level stuff, but is it gaining any traction? And wtf is she doing it for? It's never going anywhere? Is there a plan here?

Trump’s really acting like the guy who, when a girlfriend dumps him, throws acid in her face so that nobody else will like her - ‘if I can’t have her, nobody else can, either.’ — Wayfarer

Could be, a reasonable theory. Or, there could be more to this. If we can momentarily detach ourselves from our disgust of Trump, and for a bit look at him as a political communicator/debater, a man of rhetoric, he becomes rather more interesting.

We might observe how nobody really knows what Trump is up to. Everyone has their pet theory, but nobody really knows. Part of Trump's instinctive debate genius is to perpetually keep everyone off guard, confused, befuddled, not knowing what's going to happen next.

As example, imagine that he's preparing his followers to support a coming coup attempt. Not saying this is so, just asking you to imagine. Look at how we're unprepared for such a possibility. Is he a cartoon? An imbecile? An ego maniac? Is he serious? Is he cooking up a big surprise?

Yes, yes, I know, I know, each of you wants to chant "Trump is stupid and we are smart!!!" over and over again. Ok, fair enough, not really arguing, I just think it's more interesting to try to get beyond these emotional poses, our emotional poses, and try to look at Trump through other lenses. And, you know, he is President, and we are not.

I've been following American politics on an almost daily basis since the early sixties. Trump is easily the most interesting political figure of my lifetime. You look at him hosting some insipid reality TV show and can't imagine voting for him for dog catcher, and the next thing you know he's obtained personal control of the nation's nuclear arsenal. Hollywood is not creative enough to write scripts like this.

I think we should be careful in assuming that we know what Trump is up to. Trump himself may not know. He's a very instinctive and spontaneous player. And using that method he succeeded in defeating the entire political establishment at their own game, until very recently.

The time to relax will be when they're lowering Trump's casket in to the ground. Until then, we'd be wise to keep an open mind and pay attention.

I think we should be careful in assuming that we know what Trump is up to. Trump himself may not know. He's a very instinctive and spontaneous player. And using that method he succeeded in defeating the entire political establishment at their own game, until very recently. — Hippyhead

Rather than "instinctive and spontaneous", I'd use the word "puppet".

We might observe how nobody really knows what Trump is up to. — Hippyhead

Including himself.

And using that method he succeeded in defeating the entire political establishment at their own game, until very recently. — Hippyhead

I don't buy this for a moment. His 2016 electoral victory was a complete surprise to himself, as much as everyone else. In 2016 he never thought he would win - and he was wrong. His 2016 win was a Stephen Bradbury win. (That was the Australian ice skater who won gold at the olympics because the leading pack all fell over each other.)

In 2020 he never thought he could lose - wrong again.

Trump's wins come because he ruthlessly games the system for whatever momentary advantage he can. Many commentators have said that one of the reasons he's gotten away with so much is that the founders of the United States never imagined having to deal with such a shameless grifter - they assumed that whomever was elected President would at least have a modicum of ethical principles and decency. The remedy of impeachment was introduced specifically to deal with the kinds of criminal behaviour that Trump exhibits, but regrettably the Republican party has become so corrupted by him, that they were unwilling to rightfully exercise that power in February 2020 when they should have. Now the majority of the GOP stand idly by while he attempts to overthrow democratic rule. American democracy has never been under such threat as it has under Trump, and it's still not over.

But it looks as though finally Trump is facing a reckoning - that he lost the election by an enormous margin, too large to game or bullshit away. But he will never accept it, and he will convince millions of credulous people that really, he won. It's a kingdom of lies, a vortex of delusion.

@Baden

The incompetence grows even further.

"Sidney Powell is practising law on her own. She is not a member of the Trump Legal Team. She is also not a lawyer for the President in his personal capacity. She is a crazed lunatic who made us look bad by being even crazier than we are. To make up for this we have hired celebrity superstar lawyer Lionel Hutz to replace her."

Btw, give me some insight, what do Georgians think of Sidney Powell's latest conspiracy theory that Dominion paid Brian Kemp to illegally add a shit-ton of votes to Biden's tally and of her threat to "blow up" Georgia with a "Biblical" lawsuit. It's National Enquirer "Aliens ate my baby"-level stuff, but is it gaining any traction? And wtf is she doing it for? It's never going anywhere? Is there a plan here? — Baden

It's hard to get my finger on the pulse. There's a guy at work here who's sure that there was fraud, despite there being no evidence of it.

When the Republican Secretary of State Raffesnberger certified the election, Perdue and Loeffler issued a joint statement calling for his resignation. Kemp wouldn't go so far, so now there's talk when he's up for reelection, the Republicans are going to run someone against him in the primary who's more pro-Trump. It appears therefore that the political strategists believe that Republican Georgians are very pro-Trump and they don't want to push back on his crazy conspiracy theories. My own thinking is that isn't a great strategy considering the slim margin needed for a victory and this tact might lose more Republicans than it will gain. That is, I can't imagine any Trump supporter voting for Warnock or Ossoff because they'd have been incensed had Perdue and Loeffler showed some integrity and demanded the truth.

My own thought is that the Republicans need to recognize that Trump isn't concerned about the future of the Republican party or of the country and they need to jump off the Trump crazy train.

I'm in a bind myself here because I have serious problems with Warnock and Ossoff and could never vote for them. I also have a problem with Loeffler's stock trade shenanigans. And then there's the really big issue for me in that I think Perdue and Loeffler are spineless pieces of shit for not standing up against stupidity and dishonesty and in demanding the resignation of someone who did the right thing. But then again, I see the Senate as the only check left against a Democratic party that is being pushed farther left than the general public wants, so I want the Republicans to win here.

So, I guess I'll have to vote for Perdue at least, but maybe not Loeffler (and just leave that one blank), but I'm really not sure. I can't even so a write in vote here because you can't do a write in for a runoff. I guess I have to decide which choice is the least worst.

Funny thing is, Loeffler was mentioned by Powell as a beneficiary of the alleged fraud in her run off against Collins. So, she may take it from both sides. Hope she does because she's clearly just playing her supporters and doesn't give a F about anything but herself.

I see the Senate as the only check left against a Democratic party that is being pushed farther left than the general public wants, — Hanover

Further left than what in what way, and evidence? In a nutshell, the Donkey is about you, and your well-being, and the GOP is about itself and getting as much as it can no matter what it takes, or from whom or how. And that may have been reasonable before 1830, before the industrial revolution was starting to take hold, when the country was mainly wilderness and people pretty much had to take care of them themselves for themselves. But not now. An example of how far the Republican party has fallen, the national highway system was Eisenhower. No Republican today could even formulate the underlying concepts of such a thing.

The US is today, in terms of any good at all, a one-party country. Arguably so since the election of Reagan. The Democrat party is the home of the reasonably good and even the very good. And the Republican party has chiseled and carved itself into an engine of evil and bad that, one hopes, with Trump has blown itself apart. And with 70M votes, every American who voted for Trump has endorsed him and proved him- or herself, at the very, very best, a stupid ignorant dangerous fool. But that's at best.

In a nutshell, the Donkey is about you, and your well-being, and the GOP is about itself and getting as much as it can no matter what it takes, or from whom or how. — tim wood

Why is it for Americans so difficult to understand that everybody doesn't think as they themselves do, even if you just had an election there where 79 million voted for Biden and 73 million voted for Trump?

This wasn't Franklin Delano Roosevelt winning Alf Landon, an electoral vote of 538 to 8 (and the popular vote being 60,8% to 36,5%), even if Joe Biden clearly did win.

An example of how far the Republican party has fallen, the national highway system was Eisenhower. No Republican today could even formulate the underlying concepts of such a thing. — tim wood

I disagee.

On the contrary, an Eisenhower like Republican could actually easily get a firm grip on the Republican party, if he gets a following like Trump. Just think about it for a second: If they become total jelly in front of the totally inept Trump and even now a vast majority don't dare to say the obvious, that how utterly crazy Trump's post-election tantrum is, it all just shows how much they bow down in front of popular support. Now an Eisenhower type leader from the right could easily get the working class to choose him and not a democrat career politician. You simply cannot deny the malleability of the GOP.

In fact it's the Democrats that can rule their party with a far more firmer grip. They control their extreme-lefties with giving some limelight to Bernie and AOC types to please the activist crowd, but firmly put these aside when the chips are down. If Trump could take over the Republican party, surely someone of Eisenhowers character could take it also. (Of course, to get an Eisenhower, perhaps the US has to have that war with China first.)

Eisenhower's TV Add from1956. Might be something Americans would still want to vote for.

Eisenhower won back then with 57% of the votes and 457 electoral votes only with the segregated South supporting the Democrats, btw.

Why is it for Americans so difficult to understand that everybody doesn't think as they themselves do, even if you just had an election there where 79 million voted for Biden and 73 million voted for Trump? — ssu

You're claiming those Trump voters were thinking? What were they thinking?

I believe there are a lot of good, decent, sensible Republicans - but they've all migrated to the Democrat Party as refugees.

As to the rest of your post, if another Eisenhower came along, the GOP would be lucky to have him - the idea of an "Eisenhower from the right" being a contradiction in terms.

An example of how far the Republican party has fallen, the national highway system was Eisenhower. No Republican today could even formulate the underlying concepts of such a thing.
— tim wood
I disagee. — ssu

What do you disagree with and why? You maybe think Ted Cruz or Lindsay Graham, arguably the best, brightest, and most intelligent stars of the Republican Party, could think of such things?

I’m loving Trump’s efforts contesting the results of the election and his refusal to concede, not only because it puts a spotlight on America’s shoddy election process, but also because it renders his opponents silly.

As predictable as morning, the same voices that for three years spread misinformation and conspiracy theories of the 2016 election are now shedding tears about Trump’s threat to “our most sacred right” in 2020. The cliché “you reap what you sow” comes to mind.

Some are even saying Trump is staging a coup, as if he wasn’t already the leader of the free world—and this after years of failed investigations and frivolous impeachment attempts, all of which hindered the administration during a time when it might have focused on threats based in reality instead of the deep-state dinner-theater.

Never mind that the establishment’s parrots were silent when democrats such as Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar raised concerns in 2019 about voting machines, reports of “vote flipping”, and other problems; when the president expresses the same concerns he is doing so out of spite and revenge, at least according to “people familiar with the president’s thinking”, whose gossip could come from any self-appointed Trump mind reader. The tendency to assign motives to Trump is a consistent propaganda technique, but it is always based on two assumptions: that one can assume Trump holds the worst possible intentions, and that one can further assume that, if he has found the lowest possible motive, he has found the right one. One could just as easily say the concerns of Trump’s opponents about his refusal to concede is born of fear and megalomania and ignorance. At any rate, that is why the motive canard is so uninteresting. Each side can go on playing the game ad nauseam, but when all the mud has been flung every man’s views still remain to be considered on their merits.

As for the merits, that will be for the courts to decide.