Damn, I ran out of time. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's alright. It was more of a rhetorical question anyway. I don't expect you'd be conscious of the real reasons. Some of us are just better at introspection and at reading people than others. I think it comes naturally to me. Obviously, not everyone is going to like it when I hold a mirror up to them. That's because it often differs from the idealised construct we've built of ourselves.

The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That's a big piece of the problem: No locality (city, county, state) can afford to absorb and assist millions of immigrants, asylum seekers, opportunists, and so forth. And what comes across the southern border is not the total of in-coming people. There are the effects that large numbers of non-English speaking immigrants without high-industrial skills have on wages, especially in the low-pay sector. The desperate people may not be criminals, but human smugglers are. Since they are illegal (and outside of the taxation and social welfare systems) they place a greater burden on schools, housing, emergency rooms and public clinics, and so on.

The other thing is social consent: if we didn't agree your coming here, why should we accept and assist you? Of course, the people coming here didn't agree to drug gangs, fascist execution squads, or deep poverty, either.

It's a conundrum to which I don't have an answer that satisfies my own ethical system.

A number of reports published by CIS have been described as false or misleading by scholars on immigration, fact-checkers such as PolitiFact, FactCheck.Org, Snopes, media outlets such as Washington Post, CNN and NBC News, and immigration-research organizations. John Tanton who founded CIS was opposed because of racist reasons. So what can I say when you don't bother to check out your sources. - copied or abbreviated from wikipedia

Fact of the matter is illegal immigrants are a fraction of what it used to be as immigrants report to the authorities almost immediately in most cases. So you can hardly claim that is the issue with US immigration policy.

Yes, but who cares about drug gangs, fascist execution squads, and deep poverty when you have an imagined civil war to fret over from your relatively large and safe estate, in a state with a relatively good median household income of somewhere in the region of $52,000 - $56,000, in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, roughly somewhere within or just outside of the top ten in the world. Even though there hasn't been a civil war since the civil war of 1861 - 1865, which ended around 154 years ago.

Get a sense of perspective, man! Kick Jonny Foreigner out and arm yourself to the teeth, like a polite and concerned citizen of the USA.

The coffers are empty — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Then seems like a bad time for Trump to be cutting taxes, wouldn't you say?

Hey, I not only have my Medium Income, distant civil war, wealthier country of the world (of which my share is about zip), and living in my castle in a state bordering on Canada, but I'm getting fairly old, so all this crap will soon enough no longer be my problem. Unless, of course, I live another 30 years. L'horreur, l'horreur! Should I start drinking a lot more and take up smoking again to move things along? Eat more animal fat? Cut out fiber? Stop eating fresh fruits and vegetables? Stop exercising? Hey, it would be a lot cheaper to cut out the good stuff, and I'll need more money if I start smoking, cigarettes are over $8 a pack, $160+ for a carton.

Cigarettes?! Who cares about cigarettes when civil war is fast approaching!?! Just because it is a product of my imagination, that's no excuse not to take it extremely seriously. Not only are we faced with the alarming prospect of an imaginary civil war, I imagine that we'll have no allies in this imaginary war! Who will save the good citizens of the United States of America from the entirely imagined horrors of an imaginary civil war?! Do you intend to stand idly by, cigarette in hand, whilst imaginary bombs fall and imaginary bullets fly by?!

And what about the children? Won't somebody think of the children?! At least share your cigarettes with them. Have you no conscience?

From the article:
— praxis

“It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”

Thank you for at least reading what I am posting. I greatly appreciate it. The perception of a crisis is in the eye of those charged with handling the it. For me? The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

My interpretation of the article is that bottleneck in transportation creates the “perception” of a crisis and that those arriving will disperse throughout the country and not overtax the area of the bottleneck for long.

Incidentally, your posts on the subject have been brimming with emotion. If you’re just venting that’s cool, but you might express it in a way that others can more easily empathize. If it’s intentional and designed to be persuasive, probably not a good call for this audience.

In any case I’m sorry for your distress and I’m inspired to check with my representatives regarding immigration reform.

The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

This is from Wikipedia:

Research suggests that immigration to the United States is beneficial to the U.S. economy. With few exceptions, the evidence suggests that on average, immigration has positive economic effects on the native population, but it is mixed as to whether low-skilled immigration adversely affects low-skilled natives. Studies also show that immigrants have lower crime rates than natives in the United States.[10][11][12] Research shows that the United States excels at assimilating first- and second-generation immigrants relative to many other Western countries. — Wikipedia: Immigration to the United States

https://reliefweb.int/report/honduras/honduran-crisis-produces-new-caravan-0

Tiff's whole rant here is no different from Fox/Trump propaganda.

Hey here's an idea, instead of defunding public services, let's tax the rich to better fund these services instead and help the people who are fleeing the countries the US fucked over decades ago, instead of demonizing them, and rounding them up in concentration camps. wow so crazy.

The United States has been deeply involved, and holds a high degree of responsibility for the crisis in Central America, as Bitter Crank has already pointed out. This goes back to the anti-communist campaigns of the eighties. Back then, if they tried to leave they were bombed as rebels. It appears like the US has had success in its effort to keep Central America from going communist. But now there's no pretense for killing migrants.

But now there's no pretense for killing migrants. — Metaphysician Undercover

Que?

Polls consistently show a preference among Americans for higher taxes on the rich. But somehow it never happens. What does happen is fiscally irresponsible tax breaks that drive national debt to unsustainable levels, and then that unsustainable debt is used as an excuse for cutting public services. And just in case anyone notices, induce distracting panic about immigrants, Muslims, PC, SJWs etc.

Tiff's whole rant here is no different from Fox/Trump propaganda. — Maw

It's times like these that I miss 180 the most. As a fellow resident of AZ he might be able to verify or dismiss what I am saying.
All I can say is that I am trying. Believe it or not I am trying to change and it is not in carrying the adminstration talking points but to move to a place to help those in need.

There is no way for someone to change overnight but I am trying to move my focus. I guess I will see if Philosophy allows for evolution of perspectives.

Hey here's an idea, instead of defunding public services, let's tax the rich to better fund these services instead and help the people who are fleeing the countries the US fucked over decades ago, instead of demonizing them, and rounding them up in concentration camps. wow so crazy. — Maw

It's just a giant distraction technique, isn't it? And so many of the mindless masses lap it up. It's classic divide and rule.

It's times like these that I miss 180 the most. As a fellow resident of AZ he might be able to verify or dismiss what I am saying. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yeah I definitely don't think 180 Proof would approve of the xenophobic propaganda expressed on Fox News, or by Trump or other right-wing groups and organizations.

Anyway, no one is asking you to change your views overnight, but we've had this conversation for about a year now.

Yeah I definitely don't think 180 Proof would approve of the xenophobic propaganda expressed on Fox News, or by Trump or other right-wing groups and organizations. — Maw

When I spoke of 180 it was to at the very least to get another Phoenicians point of view and to verify or deny the actions in our state. But his position on this is not one I am willing to guess.

Yeah, no one is asking you to change your views overnight, but we've had this conversation for about a year now. — Maw

Maw, you have been very patient with me and with a couple others have allowed me to evolve my position on this and for that I am grateful and Thank you.

My perspective on this in the beginning is not where I stand today. I had been trying to understand how the government enforcing the laws on the books was "unethical" even if it meant the separation of children from their family or the adults they were traveling with which are not always one in the same.

I expressed that, shared words here in thread as well as private conversations about my perspective and I was moved. I shifted positions towards a more humane one.

True change takes time but I am moving, it might not be fast enough for some and others will never let me change.

All I can do is keep educating myself, remain flexible enough to shift positions and keep on moving towards a humane answer.

Thank you for your patience Maw

Can't be more reasonable than that. You would probably be the perfect person if you stopped watching Fox News. :smile:

In a news conference today, Trump claimed that one benefit of closing the southern border is that it would stop "hundreds of millions of dollars of drugs" from coming into the US. Apparently, he knows that the vast majority of drugs smuggled into the US is through legal ports of entry.

Thank you for your patience Maw — ArguingWAristotleTiff

To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before

To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before — Maw

Maw, there is no apology from me for who I have been. For without being where I was, there would be no movement to where I want to be.

There is no way for me to instill in you the faith necessary for me to grow. I can do it with or without you and others but I chose to try, listen and keep an open mind and heart.

Maw, you and I both know that you can stop responding to me at any point. I appreciate the time you have taken with me and hope you are a part of my future but only if you want to be. :flower:

Of course it's an issue. Arizona isn't Florida. It will run out of resources quicker.

But one thing to consider is that Trump purposefully delayed hiring the judges needed to process people legally. It's like he wanted a crisis of some sort. To some extent, the situation would improve if we had a different president.

I don't say that with any partisan spirit. I've had my fill of whiney liberals who can be counted upon to do exactly the same shit they criticize.

To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before. — Maw

It's definitely a pattern. It's like your thinking changes with your mood, @ArguingWAristotleTiff. I much prefer the sympathetic Tiff to the angry ranting Tiff. I would actually love to see more of the angry ranting Tiff if it was directed at the right target. Like, oh, I don't know, oil tycoons, say.

That sounded sexist. Stop being a loser.

That sounded sexist. Stop being a loser. — frank

What an offensive and idiotic thing to say. It was emotional whether she's a she or he. I'm not going to withhold that assessment just because she happens to be a woman or because people like you might jump to conclusions about that irrelevant fact.

Why so angry? Was it the "loser" part?

Why so angry? Was it the "loser" part? — frank

I get very angry over false accusations regarding the things I care a lot about. I don't think I've ever resorted to such extreme flaming in my ten years as part of this forum and the old one, so congratulations.

So you do know that grown-ups take responsibility for their own words and actions?