• Baden
    10.2k


    My hot button is when someone changes their avatar to a leprechaun. :rage: :rage: :lol:
  • I like sushi
    2.3k
    Especially to Sushi for taking it so well and speaking in my favor even though he was the target. (I still find that “not trying” remark really offensive and don’t want to engage with you anymore, but it didn’t warrant that kind of flaming).Pfhorrest

    I will engaging with you though. If you still think what I said was ‘really offensive’ you have a problem. I’ve looked back through what I said and the only thing that was off-colour was the ‘high-school’ comment because I neglected to explain what I meant by it - which I did explain as soon as I realised.

    What did you find so offensive? You’re maxim says practically the same thing.

    The emotional attachment you have to your project is the only logical explanation I have (that happens to everyone to some degree - it’s helpful to realise this though in order to make possible improvements by receiving critique).
  • Pfhorrest
    1.9k
    What did you find so offensive? You’re maxim says practically the same thing.I like sushi

    That you said I wasn't trying hard enough, and directly in response to me referencing my maxim, admitting that maybe I shouldn't reasonably have had any hopes for something, but that I was at least trying for it.

    You have every right to critique the products of my efforts (and I have every right to disregard them if I think they're without value, which I now intend to do with you), but you have no right to tell me I'm not putting enough effort in.

    Like I said before, you're not my boss, hovering over my shoulder to make sure I'm not slacking off. You don't have any grounds to tell me I'm not working hard enough. You can be dissatisfied with the result of my work, but it's my work on my own initiative; I am my boss in this matter. You don't know what else is on my plate, and you don't get to judge whether I'm putting in enough effort.

    This is also a particularly hot-button issue for me because my father was emotionally abusive in exactly this way when I was younger, turning every dissatisfaction with some outcome of my actions into an attack on my character. (Unexpected problem occurred that I didn't think would happen? "That's right you didn't think!"Any other explanation of how something turned out worse than I meant it to? "No excuses!" It's because of that that I now feel guilty whenever anything bad happens, no matter how out of my control reasonable people would say it was, because I've internalized that I should have been smart enough to foresee every possible problem and proactive enough to preemptively prevent it.)

    I also said pretty much this, but shorter, already. I wasn't angry at all about the critique of my work. I was trying to listen reasonably to your criticism even while multiple other people were telling me I ought to just ignore you (and not all of them anyone personally close to me who has any reason to care about my feelings; even Jamalrob said right there in the thread that I should just ignore you). It was only when you attacked my character (immediately after I had finished making yet more revisions based on your feedback) that I lost it.

    That doesn't excuse deploying that offense-bomb I used, but here's your explanation as to why I was so offended.
  • I like sushi
    2.3k
    You have every right to critique the products of my efforts (and I have every right to disregard them if I think they're without value, which I now intend to do with you), but you have no right to tell me I'm not putting enough effort in.Pfhorrest

    Okay, first two points. Of course. Last point is untrue and I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a reasonable number of people who’d find this ‘really offensive’:

    I was hoping to find something like a “philosophy fandom”, that might have that same kind of collaborative creative enthusiasm for “fan philosophical” works. But from what I gather even in contemporary video game fandoms that kind of spirit is hard to find these days, so maybe that kind of hope was always in vain.

    (...but I’m trying anyway).
    — Pfhorrest

    Not trying hard enough. Maybe you’re just not ready yet and find it easier to swallow if it’s ‘the world’ that’s against you instead of yourself.

    We’re all human though. I do the same often enough and still hoodwink myself for days/weeks/months at a time. Slowly less and less, it is what it is, we are what we are, but we can instill ourselves a break our own destructive patterns if we manage to stop being consumed by hidden fears for a few brief instances (and they’re always brief or insanity ensues).

    GL and keep trying to try, to try trying, to try :D

    I have every right to point out that me, you and everyone else make excuses and blame the world often enough rather than look to our own faults.

    Like I said before, you're not my boss, hovering over my shoulder to make sure I'm not slacking off. You don't have any grounds to tell me I'm not working hard enough. You can be dissatisfied with the result of my work, but it's my work on my own initiative; I am my boss in this matter. You don't know what else is on my plate, and you don't get to judge whether I'm putting in enough effort.Pfhorrest

    But I do, as does everyone else here, when you come online expressing views of internet forums and how you’re not getting what you’re looking for.

    This is also a particularly hot-button issue for me because my father was emotionally abusive in exactly this way when I was younger, turning every dissatisfaction with some outcome of my actions into an attack on my character. (Unexpected problem occurred that I didn't think would happen? "That's right you didn't think!"Any other explanation of how something turned out worse than I meant it to? "No excuses!" It's because of that that I now feel guilty whenever anything bad happens, no matter how out of my control reasonable people would say it was, because I've internalized that I should have been smart enough to foresee every possible problem and proactive enough to preemptively prevent it.)Pfhorrest

    I don’t really come here to be empathetic about peoples hopes, dreams, worries and personal baggage. Professionals can do that to some degree on a personal one-to-one basis. I can only offer a broad point from personal experience (which I wouldn’t normally express here or anywhere else online).

    I can relate. In my family my brothers and sister have a very hard time dealing with our parents. I don’t though. For some reason they don’t see them as humans who make the same stupid mistakes in life they make. I used to be angry at my parents for a while and shifted blame onto them. At the end of the day life is tough for everyone sometime more so for others than yourself.

    Both my parents repeatedly said exactly the same things as what you’ve shown above and a hell of a lot worse. It might, just might, be your problem not theirs - and that isn’t a bad or derogatory thought to address, just an extremely useful way to deal with who and what you are as an individual. We’re all effectively fucked up in one way or another and often better off for it sometimes :)

    That you said I wasn't trying hard enough, and directly in response to me referencing my maxim, admitting that maybe I shouldn't reasonably have had any hopes for something, but that I was at least trying for it.Pfhorrest

    I agree with your maxim. What we do is never enough, we never try hard enough and yet we should really keep at it. That is essentially what I said, but with emphasis on pushing ourselves on regardless.

    If you were offended by what I said you should be equally offended by your own words. They are, at their heart, the same. The difference was only in the delivery.
  • Pfhorrest
    1.9k
    I think the delivery is very important. If anyone ever takes my maxim as implying that they’re not trying hard enough rather than just encouraging them not to give up completely, then I’d feel I owed them an apology. It’s not my or anyone’s place to tell anyone that they’re not trying hard enough at their own lives, even if we think it’s true, even if we would try harder in their place. We are not them, we can’t accurately judge how hard is enough. But we can remind them that some effort has better odds than no effort.

    It’s the difference between encouragement and berating. Between “you can succeed, I believe in you” and “it’s your fault you haven’t succeeded yet.”
  • boethius
    659


    I've been following your exchange with on your book and here as well.

    I like sushi is providing you useful advice.

    To make any advance in philosophical understanding requires subjecting one's thoughts to the harshest possible criticism. I like sushi is providing this sort of value to you for free; there exists no onus to bundle that value with other kinds such as encouragement or accolades.

    Crafting good arguments is a destructive testing process. Since they are within us and not at a distance behind a barrier, it is a intrinsically painful task and it is impossible to know ahead of time which arguments can withstand the conditions asked of it and which cannot. Therefore, to engage in authentic philosophical reflection and debate is to gamble with one's very self. I like sushi can only show you the door, it is you that must walk through it. Your recent comments seem to reflect a discomfort with such a position, but it is what it is.
  • Pfhorrest
    1.9k
    You seemed to miss the part where I was sucking it up and trying to heed his advice anyway despite being advised by ithers not to, until he commented not on the work, but on me personally. I don’t expect to be coddled, but I expect not to be personally attacked.
  • boethius
    659
    You seemed to miss the part where I was sucking it up and trying to heed his advice anyway despite being advised by ithers not to, until he commented not on the work, but on me personally.Pfhorrest

    I did not miss it, that is why I say you are in an uncomfortable position. You know what you must do, to advance in philosophy, but you do not know if you have the strength to do it.

    I don’t expect to be coddled, but I expect not to be personally attacked.Pfhorrest

    This is why I point out that there is no clear separation between yourself and your arguments; therefore, you should expect to be personally attacked in this sense. There is no way to differentiate between an attack on yourself and your argument, unless you already know that your argument is really true apart from your own satisfaction with it, in which case you feel nothing about the agitation of fools.
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