Do YOU believe people should be punished for burning holy books? — flannel jesus

No. But my perspective is that of a privileged, secular, decadent Westerner - the product of his times.

How can we bridge the gap between Western and Islamic perspectives?

What do you mean by 'bridge the gap'? Do you mean, how can we get it through to Muslims that they need to stop knifing people just because they're offended on behalf of their religion?

The issue, as I see it, is the role of the sacred and how far someone will go to defend it.

My view is that Muslims in the West should obey the laws. Killing people for apostasy or blasphemy is against our values and laws. We allow people to burn flags and holy books if that's their thing.

Are you a theist?

no, not a theist, atheist (funny that a single space could make a word mean the exact opposite thing)

Anytime someone's feelings are hurt, that's an offense? — flannel jesus

I think so.

That's a crime worthy of punishment from the local government? — flannel jesus

I think so but it is not considered as a crime.

But you want it to be considered a crime?

Consider this: can't you hurt peoples feelings even by doing nothing wrong? I mean what if I want to break up with my girlfriend, if that hurts her feelings that makes me a criminal? This is such a wild idea to me, you're the only person I've ever heard take this extreme of a view that all hurt feelings and offense should be treated as criminal.

It could hurt a parents feelings to find out their child is gay, but it could hurt the child's feelings to find out their parents are homophobic. Are they both criminals?

And what kind of punishment matches a 'hurt feelings' crime? You dumped your girlfriend so now you have to pay a fine? Or you have to go to prison? 5 years hard labor?

What if the very idea of 'hurt feelings is a criminal matter' hurts MY feelings? Should YOU be considered a criminal? What kind of punishment do you deserve for having such an offensive idea?

I mean what if I want to break up with my girlfriend, if that hurts her feelings that makes me a criminal? — flannel jesus

Consider that you lost your feelings to your girlfriend but she still loves you. You should still care for her feelings. That does not mean you are forced to live with her forever but you need to stay with her, talk with her openly and gently, explaining your feelings to her, until she becomes ready for the separation. We cannot simply dump people and play with their feelings because we desire to do so.

It could hurt a parents feelings to find out their child is gay, but it could hurt the child's feelings to find out their parents are homophobic. Are they both criminals? — flannel jesus

Sure not. We just need to become open-minded to accommodate people who feel, believe, and think differently from us.

you are speaking in complete vagueries at this point

you are speaking in complete vagueries at this point — flannel jesus

Of course not. Do you agree with me in the girlfriend scenario?

We're talking about laws and, really, you called it "violence" initially. Whether I agree with you on what someone should do is entirely different from the claim that it's violent, or that it should be illegal.

A non vague answer from you would be something like "this behaviour IS violent / this behaviour should be illegal". Is it violent to break up with someone if it hurts their feelings? Should it be illegal?

We're talking about laws and, really, you called it "violence" initially. Whether I agree with you on what someone should do is entirely different from the claim that it's violent, or that it should be illegal.

A non vague answer from you would be something like "this behaviour IS violent / this behaviour should be illegal". Is it violent to break up with someone if it hurts their feelings? Should it be illegal? — flannel jesus

I already answered that in the case of your girlfriend. Dumping people is not allowed and it is an offence.

already answered that in the case of your girlfriend. — MoK

No you didn't, you talked about what I should do. Saying what someone should do is different from explicitly saying it's violent or it's criminal.

Anyway, you seem kind of insane about all of this if I'm being honest. Criminalising ending a relationship is actually crazy. I have your take on it all now, thank you, your take is you want an extreme totalitarian government which punishes even the slightest "offenses" if they hurt someone's feelings. Thanks for sharing.

No you didn't, you talked about what I should do. Saying what someone should do is different from explicitly saying it's violent or it's criminal. — flannel jesus

No, it is not different. Don't you agree that dumping your partner who is in love with you is not correct and that you should do everything you can to reach a situation in which your partner is ready for separation? Which kind of person you are? Do you dump your partner or stay with her until she is ready for separation? What do you think of dumping? Isn't it a wrong act?

It is absolutely different. I don't think someone should wash their underwear and their shirts in the same load, but I don't believe anybody should be criminalized for it. "What you should do" and "What should the law enforce" are clearly 2 different things.

It is absolutely different. I don't think someone should wash their underwear and their shirts in the same load, but I don't believe anybody should be criminalized for it. "What you should do" and "What should the law enforce" are clearly 2 different things. — flannel jesus

Why don't you answer my questions?

Because you're speaking nonsense lmao. If you can't even distinguish between "what should you do?" and "what should the law enforce?" then answering your questions is only enabling you to fall further into your delusions and confusions.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Because you're speaking nonsense lmao. If you can't even distinguish between "what should you do?" and "what should the law enforce?" then answering your questions is only enabling you to fall further into your delusions and confusions. — flannel jesus

What do you think we should do with people who dump their partners? What do you think of dumping?

I think people have the right to end their relationships, no one is a prisoner to a relationship, ending a relationship shouldn't be a crime. A world where it is a crime is a world of terrible horror.

I think people have the right to end their relationships, no one is a prisoner to a relationship, ending a relationship shouldn't be a crime. A world where it is a crime is a world of terrible horror. — flannel jesus

I agree but I talk about people who just dump their partners. So again which type of guy you are? Do you dump your partner or try to explain the situation to her until she is ready for separation? What we should do with people who cheat their partner or dump them when they are pleased?

it's not the governments business if someone decides to end a relationship

it's not the governments business if someone decides to end a relationship — flannel jesus

In the same manner, it is not the government's business when someone insults someone else. So who cares!?

you. You're the one saying it's violent, it's criminal. If we went back in time and instead of you saying it should be criminal to offend someone, you instead had said what you're saying now, "it is not the government's business when someone insults someone else", I would have just agreed with you. There might be some interesting exceptions and edge cases but in general, that's right, it's not the governments business.

you. You're the one saying it's violent, it's criminal. If we went back in time and instead of you saying it should be criminal to offend someone, you instead had said what you're saying now, "it is not the government's business when someone insults someone else", I would have just agreed with you. There might be some interesting exceptions and edge cases but in general, that's right, it's not the governments business. — flannel jesus

That is just your opinion. People think differently, and that is why insult is considered an offense. So, you are subject to the laws whether you like them or not.

Do you dump your partner or stay with her until she is ready for separation? — MoK

You absolutely do not stay with her until she is ready for separation. That would often mean you will never be allowed to go. Sometimes because she is manipulative and controlling. Sometimes because she innocently will never be emotionally able to let you go. Sometimes because staying with her, being kind, understanding, and patient will it make her more attracted to you.

Regardless of the reason she will noy let you go, her need to have you remain with her does booty overrule your need to find happiness elsewhere. It is wrong to insist you stay with her.

Everyone knows it's a risk to love someone. Everyone knows you might be hurt. Few people go through life without having their heart broken.

You absolutely do not stay with her until she is ready for separation. — Patterner

I do, and by becoming ready, I don't mean that she no longer feels love for me.

Everyone knows it's a risk to love someone. Everyone knows you might be hurt. Few people go through life without having their heart broken. — Patterner

I think that should become a part of education for teenagers. Many teenagers are not aware that love is a temporary emotion. We should teach them this so they can manage the situation when there is a conflict in feelings.

I wish I could burn this thread. Imagine all the smartypantsonfire! Would y'all be offended? violated? the great god Ego desecrated? Perhaps some moderator will try the experiment, and see who instructs their lawyers/sharpens their hatchet first?

be my guest. I won't litigate the burning of any of my online content.

Just this one thread? SPS (Smarty-Pants Syndrome) is everywhere. The whole site could be given a fresh start. It would be good for all. We all need to learn to let go of attachments, even to our own words. Too much ego.

A momentary irritation on my part with reading a thread mired in confusion. I'm not really a great burner of books, or even threads.

For instance, causing offence =/= committing an offence. And what does and does not constitute committing an offence varies from place to place, just as what causes offence varies from person to person. I imagine in some countries it might well be an offence to burn a holy book. And there it might be a revolutionary act to do so, and a brave one.

But in London in front of a mosque? Actually it might be considered a hate crime and an incitement to violence. We're funny about stuff like that. And it did incite violence. What you burn in the privacy of your own incinerator is your own business except that London has strict anti pollution laws, so you would have to use smokeless Korans, Bibles, or Fifty Shades of Greys.

Christians are of course famous for turning the other cheek, and being tolerant of others with other faiths, as long as you totally ignore all of history completely. And the secular are even more tolerant because they have neither books to be burned nor axes to grind. That's right isn't it?