My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.
Matthew 4:8
If Jesus is God, then what's he going to do with material wealth? — Tom Storm
I guess one might need to contrive an allegorical interpretation that transcends literalism for this one to work — Tom Storm
If Jesus was a man in addition to being God, why wouldn't it be the case that he has got something to do with material wealth? — Arcane Sandwich
But is it really worth our time analysing an entire myth like this when thousands, perhaps millions have come before us? — Tom Storm
He said on the Cross: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one? — MoK
My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.' — Tom Storm
I have a friend who is a Catholic priest. I prefer his take. He sees the Bible as a series of myths and legends that are antiquity's method for pointing at the transcendent. My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.' — Tom Storm
The interpretation that makes the most sense to me, is that this is where Jesus was utterly and entirely human. He was one of us, or indeed, all of us, at that point. No faith, no hope, no consolation, utterly bereft and desolate. This is why this agonised exclamation is described in terms of kenosis, self-emptying. Remember, 'he who saves his life will lose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will be saved.' To learn more about kenosis, google it. — Wayfarer
My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.' — Tom Storm
'There are myths that are truer than history' — Wayfarer
Not necessarily - it can also lead to hermeneutics, the art of interpretation of texts, often ancient texts, including Biblical texts. Much more characteristic of European philosophy, and not something I'm knowledgable in, though always keen to learn more. — Wayfarer
(Incidentally, I learned something interesting about Wittgenstein in this essay Wittgenstein,Tolstoy and the Folly of Logical Positivism.) — Wayfarer
Jesus is praying Psalm 22, invoking it by its first lines. — Leontiskos
Psalm 22
Why Have You Forsaken Me?
To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises[a] of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” — Psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it! — Psalm 22
And here is one of my points: Nothing that Psalm 22 says is incompatible with Rastafari. — Arcane Sandwich
What do you mean by He abandoned himself? He is God so He should know why He has to suffer and die on the Cross. Shouldn't He?Because he has abandoned himself, and he wants to know why. — Arcane Sandwich
Oh, I didn't know that philosophers had pointed out this issue in the past.In the philosophical literature, this is known as the death of God. Hegel, among other philosophers, had already pointed out this issue, before Nietzsche and before Zizek discussed it. — Arcane Sandwich
Yes, very true. That is a good one too.I find the story where Satan attempts to tempts Jesus stranger than the above. — Tom Storm
People do that when some verse in scripture does not make sense!If Jesus is God, then what's he going to do with material wealth? Surely even less effective than trying to temp Elon Musk with a dollar bill. I guess one might need to contrive an allegorical interpretation that transcends literalism for this one to work. — Tom Storm
That is against John 14:10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?The interpretation that makes the most sense to me, is that this is where Jesus was utterly and entirely human. He was one of us, or indeed, all of us, at that point. No faith, no hope, no consolation, utterly bereft and desolate. — Wayfarer
Even if we accept that interpretation then we still have a problem with why He asked: "Why?". He should have known why He emptied Himself of Divine Power.This is why this agonised exclamation is described in terms of kenosis, self-emptying. Remember, 'he who saves his life will lose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will be saved.' — Wayfarer
Fair enough - Haile Selassie is revered as a messianic figure, often regarded as the second coming of Christ or the incarnation of God (Jah). — Tom Storm
What do you mean by He abandoned himself? He is God so He should know why He has to suffer and die on the Cross. Shouldn't He? — MoK
Oh, I didn't know that philosophers had pointed out this issue in the past. — MoK
But elsewhere He mentioned in John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is saying that Father and Him are identical.Not if he underwent kenosis during crucifixion, as ↪Wayfarer pointed out earlier in this conversation. By becoming entirely human, Jesus lost all of his divine powers. As such, he asks himself why he did that: why did he undergo kenosis at the cross? He doesn't have God's answer, precisely because he underwent kenosis: God's answer is not available to someone in a state of complete kenosis, no matter if that person is (was) God. — Arcane Sandwich
But elsewhere He mentioned in John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is saying that Father and Him are identical. — MoK
Do you have any verse from the Bible that supports Kenosis?Sure, but when Jesus undergoes kenosis during crucifixion, he ceases to be identical to the Father. — Arcane Sandwich
Do you have any verse from the Bible that supports Kenosis? — MoK
The New Testament does not use the noun form kénōsis, but the verb form kenóō occurs five times (Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17, 9:15; 2 Corinthians 9:3; Philippians 2:7) and the future form kenōsei once.[a] Of these five times, Philippians 2:7 is generally considered the most significant for the Christian idea of kenosis:
Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself (ekenōsen heauton), taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name...
— Philippians 2:5-9 (NRSV)[5] — Wikipedia
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