Arcane Sandwich
But is it really worth our time analysing an entire myth like this when thousands, perhaps millions have come before us?
— Tom Storm
Sure, why not? Who says that we can't do better than them, the ones from the past? — Arcane Sandwich
Job never says that God is unjust or bad for the misfortune that befell him. He suffers acceptably. — BitconnectCarlos
Judaism rejects the corporeality of God. Regarding whether God makes verbal utterances we'd need to go the text on that one. I'm fairly certain he's described in the Bible as having a voice and I've never heard of any branch officially denying that he makes verbal utterances but I could be wrong. — BitconnectCarlos
I meant epistemic humility, as demonstrated through the book of Job. — BitconnectCarlos
"I am that I am" doesn't sound like a proper name. It sounds more like, "I think therefore I am.". Is it not a statement, that he is the one who exists? If it is what God said, then should he not given out why it is the case he exists?In the Old Testament God introduced itself as "I am that I am". In Christianity, God is three persons, Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. God is called Allah in Islam. — MoK
But the OP is about the case that Jesus was claiming that he was being abandoned by God. Was Jesus claiming something which is not the case? Or perhaps sometimes God abandons folks, if he has some pre-planned mysterious intentions?Does God sometimes abandon his/her followers? — Corvus
Not according to what I am aware of. — MoK
If I recall correctly that was God's answer when Moses asked what is your name."I am that I am" doesn't sound like a proper name. It sounds more like, "I think therefore I am.". Is it not a statement, that he is the one who exists? If it is what God said, then should he not given out why it is the case he exists? — Corvus
Jesus is believed to be God and not a follower of God according to Christians.But the OP is about the case that Jesus was claiming that he was being abandoned by God. Was Jesus claiming something which is not the case? — Corvus
Perhaps. I am not aware of any other verse that says that God abandoned His believers though. Some people believe that the verse was not the actual thing that Jesus said when He was on the Cross.Or perhaps sometimes God abandons folks, if he has some pre-planned mysterious intentions? — Corvus
"I am that I am." also sounds something is missing in the statement. You say, "I am at the starbucks", or I am in the kitchen. Then the other party will ask you, I meant which country? And you would say, "I am in California, USA near the beach, or Tokyo Japan, near Deigoku Hotel". You don't say "I am that I am." :roll:If I recall correctly that was God's answer when Moses asked what is your name. — MoK
The meaning of certain passages varies significantly depending upon tradition. Christianity finds foreshadowing and references to Jesus in the Hebrew bible, where other traditions do not. — Hanover
"this is what the Bible means"
Is this humility of understanding peculiar to the Bible or is something that you'd assert exists with any ancient writing? — Hanover
Ok. And what of a tradition which finds Justin Bieber referenced throughout the entire Bible? My question is: Are all interpretations equally valid/equally grounded in a reasonable interpretation of Scripture? Scripture that was written in a certain time and place. — BitconnectCarlos
The eating of the apple as being the impetus for God to cause Mary's immaculate impregnation so she could give birth to a messiah to rid mankind of all its inherented sin is no more or less a better interpretation than positing it means Justin Beiber is God if one thinks the text is what is to be referred to for interpretation.
But not to pick in Christianity, Jewish midrashim are stories built seemingly from scratch in efforts to interpret biblical passages. — Hanover
He said on the Cross: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one? — MoK
Or maybe they are one but Jesus has never said those words. So who knows!? Other books of the Bible mention that Jesus said other things when He was on the Cross. I can find it for you if you are interested.Here, the premise, " if He and God are one", seems not true. — Corvus
That means that the Bible is not the words of God. I have no problem with this but Christians do not agree with this.But you must not take everything what the Bible says as truth. — Corvus
I have a problem with the Trinity doctrine. Trinity is a doctrine in which there are three persons, each has their own consciousness and identity yet are not separate beings. I don't think that is possible. They may be united in a sense but that is not what Christians believe. Here I am not discussing the Trinity doctrine but arguing that that Jesus cannot be abandoned if we accept the doctrine of the Trinity.In order for you come up with the premise, you must have demonstrated in logical manner what "A and B are one" implies here. He and God are one? In what way do you think it is the case? — Corvus
By all means please. Thank you for your offer.I can find it for you if you are interested. — MoK
Their point of view on the matter would be more faith based system, which will not go well with rational arguments, I would guess.I have no problem with this but Christians do not agree with this. — MoK
I am not familiar with the detail of the theological side of the arguments. But you, as a confessed agnostic, seem to be very much familiar with the theological theories and knowledge, which gives impression that sometime in the past, you might have been a faithful and loyal Christian who attended church studying the doctrine.Here I am not discussing the Trinity doctrine but arguing that that Jesus cannot be abandoned if we accept the doctrine of the Trinity. — MoK
Luke 23:46: "Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last." So according to Luke 23:46, these words are the last words that Jesus said. According to Matthew 27:46-50, Jesus's last words were the verse which is the subject of discussion of this thread.By all means please. Thank you for your offer. — Corvus
They have all sorts of arguments for the existence of God. I can recall a few names such as Aquinas, Anselm, and Augustine as theologians and philosophers. Anselm's argument for the existence of God is already the subject of a thread in this forum. I wanted to get involved in that discussion but unfortunately, my time was short.Their point of view on the matter would be more faith based system, which will not go well with rational arguments, I would guess. — Corvus
I was just discussing different topics with Catholics a long time ago. The knowledge that I gathered is the result of my discussion with them.I am not familiar with the detail of the theological side of the arguments. But you, as a confessed agnostic, seem to be very much familiar with the theological theories and knowledge, which gives impression that sometime in the past, you might have been a faithful and loyal Christian who attended church studying the doctrine. — Corvus
:up: :pray:Luke 23:46: "Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last." So according to Luke 23:46, these words are the last words that Jesus said. According to Matthew 27:46-50, Jesus's last words were the verse which is the subject of discussion of this thread. — MoK
Going back to Trinity, it seems to have some logical problems. Saying that three entities are one is like saying 3 =1 or 1+1+1 = 1, which is not true.Trinity is a doctrine in which there are three persons, each has their own consciousness and identity yet are not separate beings. I don't think that is possible. They may be united in a sense but that is not what Christians believe. Here I am not discussing the Trinity doctrine but arguing that that Jesus cannot be abandoned if we accept the doctrine of the Trinity. — MoK
It is not like that. Christians are aware of this and they distinguish between persons of the Trinity and God's essence. I invite you to read this article if you are interested in the topic.Going back to Trinity, it seems to have some logical problems. Saying that three entities are one is like saying 3 =1 or 1+1+1 = 1, which is not true. — Corvus
"Three hypostases, one (unknowable) essence." God's essence is not known, only the divine energies. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I already answered that. According to Aquinas, there is a difference between persons of the Trinity and God's essence. I am not saying that his argument is objection-free, but saying that any valid objection requires a good understanding of the terms he uses. He is saying that three conscious persons build the Trinity, namely Father (who is the highest according to Jesus and this is problematic), Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. These three persons, however, share the same essence, which means each person is God yet different from the other persons.It is saying, 3 is 1 and 3 is not 1. — Corvus
Oh, I was not aware of that interpretation. I, however, disagree that numbers, truth, etc. are contingent things.This was taken as referring to the fact that God (and God alone) is subsistent being (everything else being contingent and relying on God as its ground, even things like number, shapes, etc., which are not entirely intelligible in themselves, but only as a part of the entire Logos). — Count Timothy von Icarus
How could that, ipsum esse subsitens, be a good interpretation of Psalm 139? I am familiar with Aquinas's argument that God's essence and existence are one.Psalm 139 is often interpreted in this way as well. It is God alone who most properly is, ipsum esse subsitens. — Count Timothy von Icarus
It is off-topic, but I think people often confuse God, the creator, with the Mind, an omnipresent, changeless entity that experiences and causes.Likewise, it is God, as universal ground and source of being in who "we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28). — Count Timothy von Icarus
I was not aware of them. Thanks for letting us know.While such an interpretation is now sometimes presented as being "medieval scholastic innovation," generally by those with an anti-philosphical bent, or particularly "Roman Catholic," one can find it in the earliest Christian commentaries on Exodus (e.g. Origen, the Cappadocians, etc ) and in earlier Jewish commentaries (e.g. Philo), and its suggested more explicitly in some of the later Biblical literature included in the Septuagint. — Count Timothy von Icarus
These three persons, however, share the same essence, which means each person is God yet different from the other persons. — MoK
How could that, ipsum esse subsitens, be a good interpretation of Psalm 139?
As I mentioned Aquinas makes a distinction between persons of the Trinity and essence. You need to familiarize yourself with the concepts of person and essence before you can attack it."share the same essence" sounds unclear here. If MoK and John share the same essence which is human, has minds, 2 arms and 2 legs, does it mean MoK is John? Are they the same being? — Corvus
I still don't understand how the fact that God is His own essence means that God is always everwhere.It's seen as supporting the thesis that God is always everywhere, all at once, and so not a thing within space and time. — Count Timothy von Icarus
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