• MoK
    861
    He said on the Cross: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Because he has abandoned himself, and he wants to know why. He is asking himself that question. In the philosophical literature, this is known as the death of God. Hegel, among other philosophers, had already pointed out this issue, before Nietzsche and before Zizek discussed it.
  • Tom Storm
    9.4k
    Heaps of interpretations for this. The one I was taught was he was quoting from Psalm 22.

    My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?

    It's just another element in the stories writers introduced to demonstrate prophecy and continuity with the tradition (Kind David's suffering) but many Christians often believe that the Psalm itself references Jesus.

    I find the story where Satan attempts to tempts Jesus stranger than the above.

    the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.
    Matthew 4:8

    If Jesus is God, then what's he going to do with material wealth? Surely even less effective than trying to temp Elon Musk with a dollar bill. I guess one might need to contrive an allegorical interpretation that transcends literalism for this one to work.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    If Jesus is God, then what's he going to do with material wealth?Tom Storm

    If Jesus was a man in addition to being God, why wouldn't it be the case that he has got something to do with material wealth?

    I guess one might need to contrive an allegorical interpretation that transcends literalism for this one to workTom Storm

    Not really. Jesus was a man. Simple as that.
  • Tom Storm
    9.4k
    If Jesus was a man in addition to being God, why wouldn't it be the case that he has got something to do with material wealth?Arcane Sandwich

    I don't think that works. The God part will provide.

    But is it really worth our time analysing an entire myth like this when thousands, perhaps millions have come before us? I was just adding what I was taught and what struck me personally as odd.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    But is it really worth our time analysing an entire myth like this when thousands, perhaps millions have come before us?Tom Storm

    Sure, why not? Who says that we can't do better than them, the ones from the past?
  • Gregory
    4.8k
    He said on the Cross: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are oneMoK

    We mustn't depersonslize Jesus and say his human nature spoke for him. Persons speak, not natures. Surely Jesus said "why did i forsake me"
  • bert1
    2k
    I don't know, but maybe this: God wants to know what it's like to be not-God, so he becomes a finite being in time and then abandons himself. Starts the car, puts it in gear and then jumps out of the car, so to speak, and watches it crash.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.4k

    If I remember correctly, he was supposed to be given vinegar to drink, when he was on the cross. Someone gave him water instead, and that pissed him off. So it was really his people that he felt were abandoning him.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    If we're gonna share the oddest Bible ideas, or the ones that each of us has found to be the oddest, then I have a ton of questions about Adam and Eve. But I'll just tell you instead the craziest interpretation that I've ever heard.

    I actually saw, on social media (I think it was Facebook?) someone explain Adam and Eve from a "rational" point of view. This person on Facebook said, that a very long time ago, there were dinosaurs here on Earth. God created them. And then, a meteorite killed the dinosaurs. And who do you think was in that meteor? That's right, Adam and Eve. Because the meteor was actually a space ship. And, here on planet Earth, there was no metal prior to the crashing of Adam and Eve's "meteor". So where do you think that all of the metal comes from? It's from the meteorite, from the spaceship.

    Please understand that I do not believe in the above explanation, for reasons that should be obvious.

    EDIT: @Count Timothy von Icarus this is what happens when everything is interpretation and nothing is canon.
  • Tom Storm
    9.4k
    That's funny. There don't appear to be any limits on interpretation and believers will make things fit and create frantic workarounds to ensure that they can retain specific doctrines and beliefs; Christians, Muslims, Marxists, Republicans all do it.

    I have a friend who is a Catholic priest. I prefer his take. He sees the Bible as a series of myths and legends that are antiquity's method for pointing at the transcendent. My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.'
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    He said on the Cross: "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?". How could He be abandoned if He and God are one?MoK

    The interpretation that makes the most sense to me, is that this is where Jesus was utterly and entirely human. He was one of us, or indeed, all of us, at that point. No faith, no hope, no consolation, utterly bereft and desolate. This is why this agonised exclamation is described in terms of kenosis, self-emptying. Remember, 'he who saves his life will lose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will be saved.' To learn more about kenosis, google it.


    My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.'Tom Storm

    'There are myths that are truer than history'.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I have a friend who is a Catholic priest. I prefer his take. He sees the Bible as a series of myths and legends that are antiquity's method for pointing at the transcendent. My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.'Tom Storm

    That's the wisest Catholic take on the Bible that I've ever heard.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    The interpretation that makes the most sense to me, is that this is where Jesus was utterly and entirely human. He was one of us, or indeed, all of us, at that point. No faith, no hope, no consolation, utterly bereft and desolate. This is why this agonised exclamation is described in terms of kenosis, self-emptying. Remember, 'he who saves his life will lose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will be saved.' To learn more about kenosis, google it.Wayfarer

    :clap:

    My favourite quote of his, "Of course it didn't happen.' — Tom Storm


    'There are myths that are truer than history'
    Wayfarer

    Which leads to a very boring discussion the Philosophy of Language which basically boils down to "Wittgensteinians vs non-Wittgensteinians". And I just think that it's a reductionist conversation to even have. Wittgenstein died like, what, almost a century ago?
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    Not necessarily - it can also lead to hermeneutics, the art of interpretation of texts, often ancient texts, including Biblical texts. Much more characteristic of European philosophy, and not something I'm knowledgable in, though always keen to learn more.

    (Incidentally, I learned something interesting about Wittgenstein in this essay Wittgenstein,Tolstoy and the Folly of Logical Positivism.)
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Not necessarily - it can also lead to hermeneutics, the art of interpretation of texts, often ancient texts, including Biblical texts. Much more characteristic of European philosophy, and not something I'm knowledgable in, though always keen to learn more.Wayfarer

    That's a lot more fun than Wittgenstein, unless you read his Tractatus in that exact sense. Then it gets really crazy.

    I imagine that the audiovisual material for that activity would be something like this:



    (Incidentally, I learned something interesting about Wittgenstein in this essay Wittgenstein,Tolstoy and the Folly of Logical Positivism.)Wayfarer

    I see Logical Positivism as the thing that existed before Scientism. It's like, you have classical Comtean positivism, then logical positivism, then scientism. That's my take on that.
  • Leontiskos
    3.7k
    - Jesus is praying Psalm 22, invoking it by its first lines.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Jesus is praying Psalm 22, invoking it by its first lines.Leontiskos

    Ok, then let's quote it, for ease of reference:

    Psalm 22
    Why Have You Forsaken Me?
    To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.

    1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
    Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
    2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
    and by night, but I find no rest.
    3 Yet you are holy,
    enthroned on the praises[a] of Israel.
    4 In you our fathers trusted;
    they trusted, and you delivered them.
    5 To you they cried and were rescued;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
    6 But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
    7 All who see me mock me;
    they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
    8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
    let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
    — Psalm 22

    EDIT: And here's the rest of the psalm:

    9 Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
    10 From birth I was cast on you; from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
    11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
    12 Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
    13 Roaring lions that tear their prey open their mouths wide against me.
    14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted within me.
    15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.
    16 Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.
    17 All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me.
    18 They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.
    19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me. You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
    20 Deliver me from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.
    21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
    22 I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you.
    23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
    24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.
    25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
    26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever!
    27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,
    28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.
    29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive.
    30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.
    31 They will proclaim his righteousness, declaring to a people yet unborn: He has done it!
    — Psalm 22

    EDIT 2: And here is one of my points: Nothing that Psalm 22 says is incompatible with Rastafari. And here is the audiovisual evidence for that claim:
  • Tom Storm
    9.4k
    And here is one of my points: Nothing that Psalm 22 says is incompatible with Rastafari.Arcane Sandwich

    Fair enough - Haile Selassie is revered as a messianic figure, often regarded as the second coming of Christ or the incarnation of God (Jah).
  • MoK
    861
    Because he has abandoned himself, and he wants to know why.Arcane Sandwich
    What do you mean by He abandoned himself? He is God so He should know why He has to suffer and die on the Cross. Shouldn't He?

    In the philosophical literature, this is known as the death of God. Hegel, among other philosophers, had already pointed out this issue, before Nietzsche and before Zizek discussed it.Arcane Sandwich
    Oh, I didn't know that philosophers had pointed out this issue in the past.
  • MoK
    861
    I find the story where Satan attempts to tempts Jesus stranger than the above.Tom Storm
    Yes, very true. That is a good one too.

    If Jesus is God, then what's he going to do with material wealth? Surely even less effective than trying to temp Elon Musk with a dollar bill. I guess one might need to contrive an allegorical interpretation that transcends literalism for this one to work.Tom Storm
    People do that when some verse in scripture does not make sense!
  • MoK
    861
    The interpretation that makes the most sense to me, is that this is where Jesus was utterly and entirely human. He was one of us, or indeed, all of us, at that point. No faith, no hope, no consolation, utterly bereft and desolate.Wayfarer
    That is against John 14:10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?

    This is why this agonised exclamation is described in terms of kenosis, self-emptying. Remember, 'he who saves his life will lose it, and he who looses his life for My sake will be saved.'Wayfarer
    Even if we accept that interpretation then we still have a problem with why He asked: "Why?". He should have known why He emptied Himself of Divine Power.
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    They're very deep theological questions. Better to ask a theologian. I still say the idea of kenosis is key.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Fair enough - Haile Selassie is revered as a messianic figure, often regarded as the second coming of Christ or the incarnation of God (Jah).Tom Storm

    I read somewhere that when there was news in Jamaica that Haile Selassie had died, some Rastas said that was false, because Haile Selassie is God, and God cannot die.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    What do you mean by He abandoned himself? He is God so He should know why He has to suffer and die on the Cross. Shouldn't He?MoK

    Not if he underwent kenosis during crucifixion, as pointed out earlier in this conversation. By becoming entirely human, Jesus lost all of his divine powers. As such, he asks himself why he did that: why did he undergo kenosis at the cross? He doesn't have God's answer, precisely because he underwent kenosis: God's answer is not available to someone in a state of complete kenosis, no matter if that person is (was) God.

    Oh, I didn't know that philosophers had pointed out this issue in the past.MoK

    Yup, it's been analyzed from different philosophical frameworks. Nietzsche has the weirdest take on it, it's even weirder than Hegel's take. Fun fact: did you know that Nietzsche himself used to sign his letters as "The Crucified" at the end of his life? Of course, he was mad with syphilis by that point, and he died in a mental hospital, but still.

    EDIT: I don't know what the Rastafari answer to this topic is. I should look it up. It probably has something to do with Haile Selassie.

    EDIT 2: Can we just agree that is an amazing song? Probably one of the best songs ever made.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I think that we, non-Rasta folks exchanging ideas on an internet Forum, can barely catch a glimpse (if at all) of what Haile Selassie meant to the Jamaican Rasta circa the early 1970's. It wasn't just politics. There was a strong political element there, sure. But Rastafari is a religion. And it involves the ritual consumption of tetrahydrocannabinol, which is a psychoactive drug. In other words, Rastas smoke weed for religious reasons, literally. Now imagine that during a ritual smoking of weed, in that context and in those circumstances, Rastas have a religious experience, as if it were a divine revelation, that Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, is indeed the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora.

    Who are we to say that their religious experience is somehow less religious than the religious experiences of Protestants or Catholics, for example?
  • MoK
    861
    Not if he underwent kenosis during crucifixion, as ↪Wayfarer pointed out earlier in this conversation. By becoming entirely human, Jesus lost all of his divine powers. As such, he asks himself why he did that: why did he undergo kenosis at the cross? He doesn't have God's answer, precisely because he underwent kenosis: God's answer is not available to someone in a state of complete kenosis, no matter if that person is (was) God.Arcane Sandwich
    But elsewhere He mentioned in John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is saying that Father and Him are identical.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    But elsewhere He mentioned in John 14:11: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is saying that Father and Him are identical.MoK

    Sure, but when Jesus undergoes kenosis during crucifixion, he ceases to be identical to the Father.
  • MoK
    861
    Sure, but when Jesus undergoes kenosis during crucifixion, he ceases to be identical to the Father.Arcane Sandwich
    Do you have any verse from the Bible that supports Kenosis?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Do you have any verse from the Bible that supports Kenosis?MoK

    How about this?

    The New Testament does not use the noun form kénōsis, but the verb form kenóō occurs five times (Romans 4:14; 1 Corinthians 1:17, 9:15; 2 Corinthians 9:3; Philippians 2:7) and the future form kenōsei once.[a] Of these five times, Philippians 2:7 is generally considered the most significant for the Christian idea of kenosis:

    Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself (ekenōsen heauton), taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name...
    — Philippians 2:5-9 (NRSV)[5]
    Wikipedia
  • MoK
    861

    But that is against the concept of the Trinity. There are several verses in the Bible mentioning that God does not change.
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