Look, if you're going to call me a bigot, here's where I'm coming from - all things you know - but if spelling it out is better than just a throw-away 'tumor' line, well, here it is:

The US - along with their lesser partner in the UK - has a been a laboratory for neoliberal policy which they have actively pushed upon and enforced - by threats, exercised in many cases - all throughout the world. It pioneered the pauperization and casualization of workforce - a model which it has exported globally - the explosion of the financial sector from which billions of people are excluded even as it continues to eat up the world economy, has actively destroyed entire swathes of the Middle-East through either active slaughter or via support of murderous regimes like Saudi Arabia - the chief exporter of the Islamic 'extremist ideology' which is now infesting Europe and South East Asia like an open wound, continues to intervene and undermine democratically elected governments in South America for the sake of resource acquisition, and this is to say nothing of it's systematic murder and imprisonment of it's own citizens based on both the color of their skin and their being an economic underclass.

The cultural values it exports - on the back of its near monopoly of English speaking media, of which, incidentally, it pioneered the art of turning news into infotainment - is toxic and continues to toxify under Trump, and is an absolute poison to everyone who touches it, including communities around me. It's co-option of both 'freedom 'and 'democracy' have turned both words into sludge, and has stained them both, perhaps irredeemably, for the rest of the planet. It is among the leading carbon emitters on Earth and when it all turns into literal fiery hellscape - a future not far off, and already here in some places, including my own backyard - it will have been responsible for a great deal of it. And none of this - or at least almost none of it - will be different if Biden wins. Which, Jesus, it's actually looking close, which is an insane indictment on it's own, even if he does. The only other country that deserves as much vitriol directed it's way is China, whom, of course, the US has enabled every step of the way for the sake of cheap shoes.

And man, this isn't even the half of it. I realize bashing Americans on a predominantly American populated forum isn't exactly the ticket to becoming homecoming queen, but it's not so wild to hold that the US has been and remains a predominant a force of enormous ill in the world - and a force that is accelerating.

So you must live in "a shitty country filled with shitty people who have made the world a worse place to be for everyone". How are you not one of the shitty people? — Bitter Crank

I don't happen to reside in a literal superpower state which has changed the course of the lives of billions for the worse.

Are you also upset at all the Jews and gays and Poles etc who lived in 1930s Germany and failed to stop the rise of the Nazis? They were Germans too, so it’s their faults as well, right?

What is with you people and whataboutisms? And yeah, if you hadn't noticed, the people among the most upset with Germany after WWII were the Germans themselves. It took, of course, a bloody holocaust and second world war to get there, but lets hope it doesn't come to that in the present, hey?

The only other country that deserves as much vitriol directed it's way is China — StreetlightX

Is China then a "shitty country filled with shitty people"?

It doesn't matter how you try to dress up your outburst. That you attempt a justification rather than just concede that it was an outburst is even worse. This is what makes you a bigot rather than just someone who lost it for a moment and said something bigoted.

The fact is, you attacked a people and tried to put yourself above them. You can't justify this with a critique of neoliberalism, any more than you can justify a hatred of Muslims with a critique of Islamism.

Is China then a "shitty country filled with shitty people"? — jamalrob

If China isn't the most malignant country on the face of the planet right now, it's certainly in the top two. But fine, if it's the 'shitty people' quip from which the charge of bigotry comes, then consider it retracted and restricted to the state and those with power over it and the institutions which reproduce it and them.

I realize bashing Americans on a predominantly American populated forum isn't exactly the ticket to becoming homecoming queen, but it's not so wild to hold that the US has been and remains a predominant a force of enormous ill in the world - and a force that is accelerating. — StreetlightX

And yet, everyone seems to want to come live here. They're all lined up and pounding on the door, begging to be Americans. The population of the US has doubled in my life time.

As already stated elsewhere, your popularity problem is not that you challenge American policy, which seems entirely reasonable, especially on a philosophy forum. The problem is that you present your challenge in a consistently hysterical manner which undermines your credibility as a mod on a philosophy forum.

Do you wish to be a mod? Or a bomb thrower? Either might be a reasonable choice, but the two together doesn't work very well. I have the very same issue. I like rocking the boat way too much to be credible mod.

A mod should be more like a member of the Supreme Court, and less like a bomb throwing back bencher in the House of Representatives (or House of Commons).

And yet, everyone seems to want to come live here. They're all lined up and pounding on the door, begging to be Americans. The population of the US has doubled in my life time. — Hippyhead

Holding the whip is always more popular than being subject to it.

As for the rest - it would be my shame to be held 'credible' by people like you. Trust you to cite one of the most despotic and regressive of American institutions as an exemplar of behaviour.

And yet, everyone seems to want to come live here. — Hippyhead

I don't.

And yet, everyone seems to want to come live here. — Hippyhead

I don't. — Michael

Same. The US is fucking terrifying.

Seems like Pennsylvania, Georgia and North Carolina are going to Trump (at least now).

So how it looks like now I have to admit I was wrong in my forecast that Biden will win. At least I got right that it would be a tight race. Have to learn not to believe that election polling is as accurate or trustworthy in the US as it is here.

Yet what was obvious that there wasn't much enthusiasm for Biden. Even if things would miraculously change, that is one thing apparent.

So how it looks like now I have to admit I was wrong in my forecast that Biden will win — ssu

Biden is favoured to win Pennsylvania (though he doesn't need it) and Georgia is a toss up (though he doesn't need that either). You were right the first time.

Biden is favoured to win Pennsylvania (though he doesn't need it) and Georgia is a toss up (though he doesn't need that either). — Baden

If he doesn't win either (or NC) and if he wins all the others then he'll have 271. 2 faithless electors could still give it to Trump (and just 1 will put it to the House, which I believe has a Republican advantage in terms of number of states controlled which is how it would work). Who knows how the Supreme Court will rule on that.

I'm not considering the possibilty of cheating in my calculations. That would start a form of civil war, I expect. I doubt the establishment would allow it to happen albeit it's a definite possibilty.

Oh yes, heated disagreement that is finally solved by a Supreme Court ruling on who is the US President is what the country needs. :sad:

So how it looks like now I have to admit I was wrong in my forecast that Biden will win. At least I got right that it would be a tight race. Have to learn not to believe that election polling is as accurate or trustworthy in the US as it is here. — ssu

Biden is likely gonna win NV, AZ, WI, and MI, which is enough to put him over the top with GA and PA as possible toss ups, though there will likely be a legal battle though I don't know how much of a case Trump can make there to throw out already counted mail ballots.

And yeah, I'll probably never trust a US poll again after this. Like mail in ballots and masks, Trump has politicized answering polls too. Honestly I can't really see how the US can survive like this. They're incredibly screwed as a nation.

Exceptionally many tight races, like Wisconsin with 20 000 vote in favor Biden when 99% counted. How many recounts are there going to be?

Honestly I can't really see how the US can survive like this. They're incredibly screwed as a nation. — Mr Bee

It will survive.

Except if on Wednesday 20th of January 2021 there are two inauguration ceremonies. Or something similarly utterly crazy.

I don't happen to reside in a literal superpower state which has changed the course of the lives of billions for the worse. — StreetlightX

Where you happen to reside is neither a virtue you can claim nor a vice you can be convicted of. Unless, of course, you chose to live in a shit hole country so that you could help make it a worse shit hole, then that would count against you--which, by the way, isn't your situation as far as I can tell.

As for your arraignment of the United States, I pretty much agree with it. Once one gets behind the official version, one finds an appalling history. Slavery, of course; genocide, obviously. But then there is the history of how working people (minimum 90% of the population) have been exploited, suppressed, and thoroughly misinformed about it all, and have been fed a false narrative which cripples critical thinking. Then there is the US as Global Power, another trail of tears.

Early on Wednesday afternoon, 11/4/20, it looks like Trump will prevail. And if he doesn't, Biden's presidency will not be any sort of national reformation.

It will survive. — ssu

Not too sure about that. Given the current economic situation and the fact that any sort of huge stimulus is pretty much dead, along with the likelihood of post election violence in a middle of a pandemic, it feels like something has to break.

Apparently 'the situation' of individuals in closely contested states precludes accurate polling. In states which are predominantly liberal or conservative, people seem to be more forthcoming about their intentions. And/Or the techniques polling companies employ are just not that good. Are the polling samples too small? Are the polling questions misstated? Are the statistical processing of the results erroneous? Don't know.

Maybe wishful thinking is the problem.

What's the comparative success of commercial market research? I don't know whether they can reliably predict whether a new brand of apple sauce will fly or not.

I'm not sure which news outlet you are watching, but I only get mine from Associated Press and Reuters. Associated Press has Biden with 238 Electoral Votes and Trump with 214. Most of the votes are in with the exception of Pennsylvania (which has Trump leading). Even if they stay of the same color they are now, Joe Biden wins with 270.

With "surviving" I'm drawing my definition from the experience of our eastern neighbor, which was called Soviet Union one day and then was Russia afterwards. That is "not surviving". I think afterward there will be an United States, however traumatic the 2020's are going to be to the American collective experience.

What's the comparative success of commercial market research? I don't know whether they can reliably predict whether a new brand of apple sauce will fly or not. — Bitter Crank

Here they have been rather close and usually exit polls are quite close to the end result. But you are right (even if we now knew the apple sauce already).

Of course the idea that people don't say who they are going to vote when polled is a genuine factor. For example here there came a surprise on how many voted for communists after the war as obviously it wasn't something many wanted to declare publicly (when the country just had fought a war against the Soviet Union, lost a lot of land and had massive amounts of internal refugees). Populist campaigns and totally new parties or movements can get the pollsters confused as people likely will be likely more pondering about going with a new party or not. And likely new segments of the population can either vote or old one's change their voting habits.

OK, thanks for the encouragement. On closer examination, my arithmetic applied to the New York Times map shows Biden winning by a hair or two. But again, Biden will not signal any sort of Reformation, though it would be an enormous relief to see Donald Trump hauled away by solid waste removal.

it feels like something has to break — Mr Bee

This applies to either Biden or Trump, for different reasons, and things are already breaking. Public health efforts were sufficiently hobbled to prevent the pandemic from having free rein. At this point, Covid 19 is out of control. Forest fires. Near-term unsustainable policies that are unlikely to change under either presidency (CO2/methane emissions, for instance). Global warming -- the Arctic as prime example. ETC. Economic disaster? Already in progress for a large share of the population, and a bail out won't cure it.

You're right that Biden or Trump winning would just maintain the broken status quo. Disagree with climate change though since that's a global problem and not just a problem for the US to fix (which given the judgement of their people is probably a good thing). COVID has exposed alot of America's problems and Biden is NOT gonna fix them. Big corporations are bailed out with trillions (again) and meanwhile Pelosi and McConnell couldn't care less about helping out everyone else.

What is the thinking behind falsely declaring election victories? Is it just to lay the groundwork for false accusations of voter fraud?

Of course the idea that people don't say who they are going to vote when polled is a genuine factor. — ssu

A Trump supporter lying about who they will vote for, just to fuck with the pollsters? No! That could never happen.

What is the thinking behind falsely declaring election victories? Is it just to lay the groundwork for false accusations of voter fraud? — Kenosha Kid

Pretty much. As a guy who is all about optics, Trump wants to control the narrative and thinks that if he just proclaims victory enough, people would think he's won.

I would say that this is a scummy GOP tactic, but Democrats also do it too. Just look back at Iowa and Mayor Pete. Good times.

As a guy who is all about optics, Trump wants to control the narrative and thinks that if he just proclaims victory enough, people would think he's won. — Mr Bee

But tricking people into thinking you've won doesn't serve any purpose in itself, since the vote goes on and the actual result will get declared anyway. The obvious interpretation would be that the false claimant is a lying scumbug.

But tricking people into thinking you've won doesn't serve any purpose in itself, since the vote goes on and the actual result will get declared anyway. The obvious interpretation would be that the false claimant is a lying scumbug. — Kenosha Kid

Well Trump's gonna contest the results in with his 6-3 SCOTUS and hopes they're as eager to dismantle democracy as he is. If enough people think he actually won then he thinks he could get away with it.

As for the rest - it would be my shame to be held 'credible' by people like you. Trust you to cite one of the most despotic and regressive of American institutions as an exemplar of behaviour. — StreetlightX

Every time you speak the credibility of this forum sinks another inch. Oh well, it's just a silly little forum, I'm being stupid to care, gotta agree there.

Honestly I can't really see how the US can survive like this. They're incredibly screwed as a nation. — Mr Bee

The sixties were far worse, and we're still here.