Not theirs alone, either! Don't look east or southward! — Vera Mont

Yes, I know that politics globally is scary and sickening.
I read this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/international-system-unfit-to-deal-with-global-crises-annual-report-2022/

And I don't want to say any more...

I'm sorry but I can't even raise a smile at the solar flare theory. It's good to keep a sense of humour and perspective, when you can but...

'How can it be?!'
How can it not be?

Time to strike up Nearer My God to Thee ? And the band played on...
I know it's not a time for levity, but may well be a time for gallows humour.

Returning to this.

With Fooloso4, what sticks in my mind is my initial condemnation of Plato - blaming him for the negativity towards poets and creativity in 'The Republic'. And how this has trickled down through the ages. We can question how we separate 'Philosophy' and its categories from the creative life. Stories to the left of us... — Amity

My first attempt at reading Plato's Republic was some time ago. I think on the OnlinePhilosophyClub site. Even with help from @Fooloso4 and an online course, I found it perplexing and gave up on it.

I note that @Jamal has started a thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15484/poets-and-tyrants-in-the-republic-book-i/p1

I look forward to reading this and the comments. Not sure yet whether I understand enough to participate. However, I'm pleased to say that I found the Yale course again. Prof Steven Smith is excellent and has an easy rapport with his students who are active participants. The video lectures include transcript and audio. Also available on YouTube.

https://oyc.yale.edu/political-science/plsc-114/lecture-4

Poets and Tyrants. Toast and Easter eggs

I've been enjoying Jamal's discussion and the discovery of 'literary easter eggs'. A different approach or angle to reading the Republic, Book 1. I'm in two minds about it. More can be read, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/936532

Enough of Plato for the time being.
Kicking the autumn leaves and feeling the cool air, I thought of gold-spun jumpers
Warm and comforting, like toast.
And Toast has more
It has poetry.

Take a moment and look.
If you don't like poetry
All the more reason.

https://www.toa.st/blogs/magazine/an-ode-to-poetry-book-club

I’m often asked where to begin with poetry: how to discover new voices, how to interpret subtext, how to climb inside a poem’s skin so you can see how it breathes. I think many of us are discouraged by education’s insistence on there being a ‘right’ response to poetry, which can make us wary of the form in later life.

I remember a poet speaking about this in the bookshop where I used to work, telling me how his son was asked during a comprehension test why a character in a poem was wearing a blue hat. The answer the examiner wanted was, ‘He’s wearing a blue hat because it’s raining’, but his son wrote, ‘He’s wearing a blue hat because he supports Chelsea.’ His son was marked down and told he was wrong. And that’s boring, isn’t it? Poems should present windows, not boxes to tick.

[emphasis added]

The tyranny of the tick box.
There is no 'right' response. It's about your interaction with words and what they mean, to you.
It's also fascinating to hear from the poet/author about their intention and how other readers react.

This took me back to @Noble Dust's short story - 'A Sort of Duel'.
Excerpt:

Oh and by the way, the man sitting next to me with the paper plate and pencil is dressed in khakis and a polo; I think his shoes were recently shined. And, I kid you not, his hair is dyed blue; I have no idea why. It doesn’t fit his look at all. So they’re both writing and writing, getting more and more furious by the minute; blue-hair next to me is starting to breathe heavy like he’s shagging but out of shape which makes no sense because he’s very svelte. I’m sort of freaking out at this point, but some weird part of me wants to see what he’s writing so I oh-so-subtly just sort of cock my head to the left a bit and do a little side-eye thing but blue-hair immediately catches me and gives this possessed look, like “what the bloody fuck are you doing?” — Noble Dust - A Sort of Duel

I remember being intrigued by the duality and making suggestions as to why the guy had blue hair.
Similar to the son's association of the 'blue hat' with Chelsea, I thought of a Rangers supporter (v Celtic supporter - green).
Feedback from: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/726961
Those were the days...

the man sitting next to me with the paper plate — Noble Dust - A Sort of Duel

That man sitting nigh with the paper face
A pauper's plate hangs from his grin
No hat dons his soapy pate
Nor collar does his bird neck ring
If he has but a cent, he has more
Than any sense his body sings
Stinks like seaweed on the shore
Stinks like never, nevermore

Yet that night of manner
Though shiver stings
A quiet serpent at my door
I feel too below some
Secret brings
Relief and sweet
and sacred things

the man sitting next to me with the paper plate
— Noble Dust - A Sort of Duel

That man sitting nigh with the paper face — Baden

Bridging the gap of time, space and person. Your poem is a tribute to @Noble Dust. The poetry within his and many other TPF stories. The creative worth and hidden depths. How imagination can take a simple description and bring forth more sensations and thoughts. Mind-merging moments.

I don't think enough people are given enough credit for that. It took me a while to fully appreciate the importance of TPF's Literary Event. Looking again - with more attention, experience and knowledge - I am amazed at how much I missed. Still do.

Possibly that was due to the competitive element and the initial time pressure. Some authors were impatient to get to the results. Who would be the winner. The increasing amount of entries. The pedantic and passionate arguments about grammar, voting, with null points given to a piece not considered a story. And so on.

I remember another beauty by @Noble Dust. I didn't appreciate it on a first read. However, when the feedback kicked in, I was drawn back to defend choice of words. ND held his own.
Buried Treasure. Indeed!

An excerpt:

As she sprints, she spies a bumble bee and nimbly sidesteps its path. The pollen fills her head. Her eyes dart back to Henry. She hears a crow caw to its mate in the oak overhead. She looks up and is blinded by late afternoon sun. She falters but keeps pace. Her chest thrills with the life around her. The sun’s rays bounce off the friendship rock ahead. She leaps over with somber respect. To her left the big anthill tugs at her attention but she presses on. As she passes, she sees order within the chaos of countless ant paths and errands. A conveyor belt carries in two dead flies. — Buried Treasure by Noble Dust

One of my comments:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/768204

The meaning of the story, ND's feedback makes clear. The treasure more than a buried skull.
From his 'About' profile: Sly sidestep of the bumblebee

@Baden I hope ND reads your poem and is as moved by it, as I am.
The man with no hat. No blue hair. But who:

Stinks like seaweed on the shore
Stinks like never, nevermore — Baden

Material surface level and then going underground, to the secret spiritual.

Relief and sweet and sacred things — Baden

The sense and sensibility. The whole-iness of it all. :fire:

Your poem is a tribute to Noble Dust. — Amity

Yes, that line of his just got me and the poem came out.

I remember another beauty by Noble Dust. — Amity

It is indeed a beauty. :flower:

The sense and sensibility. The whole-iness of it all. :fire: — Amity

Thank you. :smile:

The pedantic and passionate arguments about grammar, voting, with null points given to a piece not considered a story. And so on. — Amity

Sorrowfully, it was a discussion with which I am not pleased. We both already discussed this issue through PM and I promised it will never happen again (and it won't!).

I thought 1 or 2 points meant poor quality and I admit that criticising the use of Jueves as a female name hurt my feelings a bit. Yet this is the past, and the next contest will be even better (I am talking about my behavior). It is obvious that we will read great stories because the level of writing and imagination here is high and top.

Sorrowfully, it was a discussion with which I am not pleased. We both already discussed this issue through PM and I promised it will never happen again (and it won't!). — javi2541997

Believe it, or not, my post was not specifically addressed to you. I didn't want a re-hash of our 'previous', related to your story. It's unfortunate that you brought it to attention.

Your chosen quote in context:

I don't think enough people are given enough credit for that. It took me a while to fully appreciate the importance of TPF's Literary Event. Looking again - with more attention, experience and knowledge - I am amazed at how much I missed. Still do.

Possibly that was due to the competitive element and the initial time pressure. Some authors were impatient to get to the results. Who would be the winner. The increasing amount of entries. The pedantic and passionate arguments about grammar, voting, with null points given to a piece not considered a story. And so on. — Amity

The main point being that, for me, more attention could have been given to the stories, leading to increased appreciation. I think that each participant deserves this. But it's not always possible.

Yet this is the past, and the next contest will be even better (I am talking about my behavior). It is obvious that we will read great stories because the level of writing and imagination here is high and top. — javi2541997

Of course, it's the past. And what will be, will be...
Best wishes to all :flower:

I've been enjoying Jamal's discussion and the discovery of 'literary easter eggs'. A different approach or angle to reading the Republic, Book 1. I'm in two minds about it. — Amity

I think the problem with applying the idea of literary Easter eggs is that it usually refers to something inessential, a bonus for certain readers. Symbolic name choices are an example. They're not centrally significant.

But the allusions or allegories in Book 1 of the Republic are woven in with the central themes of the work and contain everything that's to come in microcosm.

Thanks for further clarification and pointing out that:

...the allusions or allegories in Book 1 of the Republic are woven in with the central themes of the work and contain everything that's to come in microcosm. — Jamal

I didn't know that. So, just another 9 Books of the Republic to read ?!
Are they worth the effort? Some more than others?
I guess it depends on the readers' interests and fondness for layered puzzles.

The "books" of the Republic are the chapters, basically. They all belong together and they're all important, although book 10 is weird and some would say adds nothing of much value to the whole work's argument.

...they're all important, although book 10 is weird and some would say adds nothing of much value to the whole work's argument. — Jamal

Hmm. I'd have thought it would be the main conclusion. Plato never fails to perplex and surprise. I like weird. Later...

book 10 is weird and some would say adds nothing of much value to the whole work's argument. — Jamal

My first thought was that those who say that book 10 adds nothing of much value have not understood it. But that is not very helpful. So, instead of leaving it there I decided I will start a thread on book 10, commenting as I go along.

I decided I will start a thread on book 10, commenting as I go along. — Fooloso4

Well. That should be interesting...but perhaps a bit of a spoiler?
Strangely enough, I had thought to head to the end but decided not to.
It might mean that I don't bother to read the rest, building up to the climax.
Or is it indeed 'the end'?

I decided I will start a thread on book 10, commenting as I go along. — Fooloso4

Great :up:

Thanks y'all. Forgot about those. Nice poem, Baden. I'm about to go to bed but will read this thread soon (hopefully).

Thanks y'all. Forgot about those. Nice poem, Baden. I'm about to go to bed but will read this thread soon (hopefully). — Noble Dust

Great to hear from you again! I can hardly believe that you could forget your stories in TPF. Because they, and others, have certainly impacted me. As you can see.

Right from the get-go, you encouraged me with a quick and easy 'How to...' think as I read and then comment accordingly. That helped me enormously to get into the flow.
You and @hypericin were instrumental in the organisation of The Literary Event, Dec 2023. :up:
Not sure how things stand for any event this December? My questions remain unanswered...guess nobody cares much :chin:

BTW, this seems to have turned into a self-indulgent blog. So, beware all ye who enter here! It won't be for long.I don't believe in >10 pages. So tedious...
Take care :sparkle: :flower:

Now to Go to Hell :fire:

@Paine is to blame! :halo:

Your introduction of how well the eggs can be understood through time prompted me to think about how different a book the Inferno by Dante was for the generations closest to it.
— Paine

Yes, the transcript above pulled me in. [The Hunt for Justice - Plato's Republic I ]
As have you! I think I now want to explore Dante...perhaps later and elsewhere. :sparkle:

The idea of a 'knowing' audience who would immediately recognise any 'easter eggs' made me think of 'intertextuality'. The way that all texts can use other texts either explicitly or implicitly to capture or enrapture the audience. - Amity — TPF - Poets and tyrants in the Republic, Book 1

[emphasis added]

Decades ago, I heard of Dante's Inferno when learning Italian but was never attracted to it. Same with poetry. I thought both too 'heavy'.
Now, I love to read and listen to them both. L'italiano is manna to my lugs.
Like Jamie Lee Curtis in A Fish Called Wanda, I am seduced by the male tongue.
Listen here: https://digitaldante.columbia.edu/sound/bausi-readings/

1. Parallel Italian/English texts helped me follow a fascinating commentary on 2. Inferno 1 - The Divine Comedy. The importance of the first line and intertextuality.

1.

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
Midway upon the journey of our life — ThoughCo - Dante's Inferno in Italian and English

2.

[9] The poet has combined biblical and classical motifs to create a uniquely hybrid “middling” textuality. “Nel mezzo” marks a middle-point/meeting-point of cultural imbrication: “Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita” (Midway upon the journey of our life [Inf. 1.1]) evokes, as critics have long noted, both biblical and classical precedents, both Isaiah 38:10 (“In the middle of my days I must depart”) and Horace’s injunction in Ars Poetica to commence a narrative “in medias res” (in the midst of things [Ars Poetica, 148]). The mid-point thus boasts both classical and biblical pedigrees.

[10] To the above well-known intertexts for “Nel mezzo”, I will add two Aristotelian texts: the passage in the Physics where we find Aristotle’s discussion of time, and the passage in Nicomachean Ethics where we find his definition of virtue.

[11] In the Physics, Aristotle describes time as “a kind of middle-point, uniting in itself both a beginning and an end, a beginning of future time and an end of past time” (Physics 8.1.251b18–26).[1] In his philosophical prose treatise, Convivio, written before the Inferno, circa 1304-1307, Dante shows that he is acquainted with Aristotle’s writings on time, citing the Physics as follows: “Lo tempo, secondo che dice Aristotile nel quarto de la Fisica, è ‘numero di movimento, secondo prima e poi’” (Time, according to Aristotle in the fourth book of the Physics, is “number of movement, according to before and after” [Conv. 4.2.6]).
— Columbia.edu - Digital Dante - Inferno 1 -

Digital Dante is an amazing site to explore.

The Russian poet Osip Mandelstam wrote: “It is unthinkable to read the cantos of Dante without aiming them in the direction of the present day. They were made for that. They are missiles for capturing the future.” Digital Dante endeavors to live up to Mandelstam’s mandate, aiming Dante’s missiles in the direction of the present day.

Dante's missiles aimed at the future.

So @Paine, even though any 'easter eggs' would perhaps be better recognised by readers of the past, there might be hope for the present reader to reach an understanding. Thanks for the inspiration.

Time for me to break off for a while. A lot of reading to catch up on...

There is plenty for the reader of today. I was mostly thinking how sure Dante sounded when claiming to know what the coming judgement of some of his contemporaries was going to be. This life and the afterlife are woven together.

I will think about what Mandelstam is saying and try to dip into the Cantos again. It has been a while.

Thanks for helpful response and best wishes. :flower:

Right from the get-go, you encouraged me with a quick and easy 'How to...' think as I read and then comment accordingly. That helped me enormously to get into the flow. — Amity

:flower: Glad to know it helped.

Not sure how things stand for any event this December? My questions remain unanswered...guess nobody cares much :chin: — Amity

There was talk of doing it this December. I'm not sure if I'll be able to help or not but I'm hoping it will happen. I have a story written already for once. :chin:

There was talk of doing it this December. I'm not sure if I'll be able to help or not but I'm hoping it will happen. I have a story written already for once. — Noble Dust

You are not alone in hoping it will happen. However, like you, I'm not sure how able I will be if it does.
I doubt I will write a story or poem, unless my brain is taken over by an unrelenting creative spirit.
Hope to read yours, wherever and whenever :sparkle:

I have concepts of a story....

I have concepts of a story.... — Vera Mont

Hah! Nice one. Channeling Trump's 'concept of a plan' for healthcare.

Nice poem, Baden. I'm about to go to bed but will read this thread soon (hopefully). — Noble Dust

:smile: :up:

Only, I really do. It started forming last month, on Friday the 13th. Haven't written it down yet, because there isn't a plot in which to ground the idea.

Oh, spooky. Especially in the month of Halloween. Where's my blue witches hat...and cat...? A graveyard plot...? :fire:

I could maybe go that way... I've been toying with the notion of luck. Charms and hexes, touchstones and talismans? Hmmm

Likewise, or 'back at you' as an American might say.

I have been reading Republic Book 10 for the sake of the Fooloso4 thread and came across a positively Dantean passage that does not belong being quoted over there (at least so far). This is a near death experience that Er reports:

“He said that his soul left him and made its way with many others and they came to a sacred spot where there were two openings in the ground next to each other, and two others opposite them in the sky above. Between them sat judges who, when they had passed sentence, ordered the just to make their way to the opening on the right leading up through the sky, and they fixed placards on the front of their bodies indicating their judgments, while the unjust were sent to the left-hand downward path and they also had indications of all they had done attached to their backs. But when he himself came forward, they said that he must become the messenger to mankind of what was happening there, and they ordered him to listen to and observe everything in that place.

“In this way, then, he said he saw the souls, when judgment had been passed, leaving by one of the openings in the sky and one in the ground, while by the other two, out of the one coming up from the ground, were souls covered in filth and dust, and down from the other one from the sky came others purified. — Plato, Republic, 614c, translated by Jones and Preddy

In Dante, of course, there is no return. The location of the placards on the front or back sends a chill down my spine.