I have been reading Republic Book 10 for the sake of the Fooloso4 thread and came across a positively Dantean passage... — Paine

@Fooloso4's thread is doing well. I'm enjoying it immensely and have participated. However, I am a bit of a fraud, not having read Book10 in its entirety. Merely skirting the edges. A flirty butterfly. So far.

Thanks for the quote and relating it to Dante. The Myth of Er does stand out. I can understand why some consider Book 10 'weird'. But it does show the magnificence of Plato's writing.

In Dante, of course, there is no return. The location of the placards on the front or back sends a chill down my spine. — Paine

Yes. The judgements based on one's life can't be seen by the offender. So, there is no recourse against any misinterpretation by the judges, whoever and how 'righteous' they are. I'll have to read this.
Just as well I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell. I am surely damned :naughty:

I decided rather than continue with @Fooloso4' Book 10 discussion that I need to read the whole Republic. To place it and @Jamal's Book1 thread in context. To try to understand what it's all about.

I wondered about the best way to approach The Republic. And something that would provide me with much-needed motivation. To engage with a bit more background.

How to Read Plato's Republic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZhFXMwVEF6c

I enjoyed this. Some of my notes:

To read slowly and carefully as an active conversation with the author.
To ask what is the ruling principle of the philosopher you are reading. It is suggested that Plato's most important issue concerns 'How to Live'. And this is a learning exercise.
To feel free to disagree. To relate the Dialogue to real life. Current politics. To reconnect with the curiosity of a child. To enjoy asking questions. We are all born philosophers.
To use imagination to read the Republic as a novel, a play.
To consider the ideas of Utopian/Dystopian literature. The speculative building of a just city, the macro level of justice and morality - how it relates to the micro level - the just individual. Is it even possible?


***

And since I need to take care of my eyes, I looked for an audio version.
To relax for a first listen. To take it slowly. To take in the overall panorama:




Edit: The video is a condensed version. From the Comments, a helpful contents guide:

Book I - 0:35
Book II - 42:00
Book III - 1:16:27
Book IV - 1:32:30
Book V - 1:58:30
Book VI - 2:33:20
Book VII - 3:04:59
Book VIII - 3:22:21
Book IX - 3:42:30
Book X - 4:27:40

I decided rather than continue with Fooloso4' Book 10 discussion that I need to read the whole Republic. — Amity

I think in discussions of Plato we are doing at least two things:

1) Discussing ideas and issues that arise in the part of the dialogue we are reading.
2) Discovering how those ideas and issues are addressed by Plato in the larger context of the whole of the dialogue and other dialogues.

We all start with the first. We might do this without ever going too far into the second.

Thanks. Most helpful. I've responsed to that and your addition in your thread. I've bolded the important part for me:

I'll add that those involved in the dialogue do not know where it will go or how it will end. We can imagine ourselves to be participants of the dialogue and add our responses to what is being said. — Fooloso4

Returning to Plato's Republic and @Jamal 's reading and lecture recommendations in his thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15484/poets-and-tyrants-in-the-republic-book-i/p1
Putting this here, so I can easily find it again:



I've decided to stick to one translation. Jamal recommended:
Plato, Republic, translated by C. D. C. Reeve, Hackett (2004)
Free online version is available.

Following my response to @Paine here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/938479

The Myth of Er
Starts at p354 of the pdf Reeve translation, 614B. Ends p361, 621c.

SOCRATES: Well, it is not an Alcinous-story I am going to tell you, but that of a brave man called Er, the son of Armenias, by race a Pamphylian.

Once upon a time, he was killed in battle. On the tenth day, when the rest of the dead were picked up, they were already putrefying, but he was picked up still quite sound. When he had been taken home and was lying on the pyre before his funeral on the twelfth day, he revived and, after reviving, told what he had seen in the other world. — The Republic - trans. C.D.C. Reeve

Just wanted to say I respect C.D.C Reeve's translations. I prefer others for different reasons, but he is very consistent in his use of phrases.

Just wanted to say I respect C.D.C Reeve's translations. I prefer others for different reasons, but he is very consistent in his use of phrases. — Paine

Yes, so far I find him easy on my eyes. I'm only 'sticking' with one translation to make it easier, for me.
I appreciate other interpretations. Widens the scope for improved understanding. A joint endeavour :sparkle:

The Myth of Er.
Here comes 25 mins of a slow and clear narration with amazing illustrations each step of the way. :fire: :100:

Escaping from Ancient Greece and Plato. To Vienna, Austria and the park of Schönbrunn Palace.
A beautiful baroque setting for summer night concerts. La magie en plein air.
Vienna Philharmonic – Offenbach: Les Contes d'Hoffmann: Barcarolle (SNC 2020)


The themes of love and beauty are from Jacques Offenbach’s opera “The Tales of Hoffman”. The opening lines set the tone:

Belle nuit, ô nuit d’amour
Souris à nos ivresses
Nuit plus douce que le jour
Ô,belle nuit d’amour!

Lovely night, oh, night of love
Smile upon our joys!
Night much sweeter than the day
Oh beautiful night of love!

https://beatcrave.com/w3/the-meaning-behind-the-song-barcarolle-from-the-tales-of-hoffman-by-offenbach/

Music on my mind. The Why rather than the What.

Yesterday, I needed a counter-balance to Death and its Aftermath.
I turned to music and Classic FM where the Barcarolle was playing. It immediately brought back memories of Mum who loved it and the Vienna concerts. It will be the 8th Anniversary of her death, soon. :flower:

Why play or listen to music? It can affect our mood and behaviour.

Then, I read of the outrage of Trump's use of it at his rallies. How he swayed to his playlist for 40 minutes. Apparently, switching away from questions after 2 people fainted due to heat.

The resort to music in place of angry, provocative rhetoric was not without its ironies. A long list of musical artists – including Celine Dion, Abba, Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen – have denounced or taken legal steps to stop the Trump campaign playing their songs at rallies.

On Tuesday, Rufus Wainright responded to Trump’s use at the Philadelphia rally of Wainwight’s cover of Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah by posting on Instagram that he was “mortified”, adding: “I’ve been supremely honored over the years to be connected with this ode to tolerance.

Witnessing Trump and his supporters commune with this music last night was the height of blasphemy.” Wainwright said before the 2016 election that he would not sing the song again unless Trump lost. — Guardian - Trump 'Let's Listen to Music' during campaign rally

Later, I watched 'Waco: the Aftermath' -

Coinciding with the 30th anniversary of the tragic events at Mt. Carmel that began on February 28, 1993, WACO: THE AFTERMATH focuses on the fallout of the Waco disaster: the trials of the surviving members of the Branch Davidian sect and the rise of homegrown terrorist, Timothy McVeigh. The five-episode limited series also provides a broader context for the escalation of the American militia movement, which foreshadows the infamous attacks of the Oklahoma City bombing and the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6.

The images of David Koresh, Waco and its aftermath, are disturbing to say the least.

Why is it that I see Trump in the same light. Someone who has been President and hopes to be again. A cult leader using religion and encouraging hate groups - his Proud Boys and more.

The Proud Boys is a North American all-male, far-right, neo-fascist militant organization that promotes and engages in political violence.

Domestic terrorism dancing to pop music. Seen as a Saviour by some 50% of American voters.

Amongst other things, Trump should be treated as a dangerous, domestic terrorist. He is an appeaser and fan of autocratic leaders. If he wins then he will be a tyrant. If he doesn't he will be a tyrant. All hell will break loose. To the sound of 'Hallelujah!'...

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well, really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light in every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

I think I'll stop reading and writing about politics. It gets me nowhere fast. Before I leave:

Thanks to @Wayfarer for this post: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/940092
The latest in a 7yr discussion about Trump. More dangerous than ever. Escalating threats to his political opponents calling them 'evil'.

It doesn't seem to matter that what he says or its implications. He has his believers or 'patriots'.
He also appeals to those not in the core pack.

If they vote for him, there will be no trouble. So, will people vote for 'peace' and protection by Trump.
Will they be fooled or frightened enough. This is reminiscent of Mafia tactics. Trump being the epitome of a fascist dictator. Another promise: if they vote for him, they won't need to worry about voting again.

From the same article in Wayfarer's post:

After being asked about Mr. Trump’s suggestion of turning the military against Americans, Mr. Youngkin replied that he didn’t believe that was what the president was saying. The network, he said, was “misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts.”

"I’m literally reading his quotes to you,” Mr. Tapper replied. — The New York Times

People see what they want to see.

Having fun in Book 10 of Plato's Republic. Yes, I am! :cool:

Discussing the river Lethe - and its meaning. Is it about forgetfulness or carelessness? This has led to an exploration of Greek mythology. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/940663

Embedded in a fascinating site which shows 'Lethe' in different contexts, including Art and Music:
https://mythicalencyclopedia.com/lethe/
The sound of Lethe.

Lethe, the River of Forgetfulness · Chronotope Project · Jeffrey Ericson Allen