I have been reading Republic Book 10 for the sake of the Fooloso4 thread and came across a positively Dantean passage... — Paine

@Fooloso4's thread is doing well. I'm enjoying it immensely and have participated. However, I am a bit of a fraud, not having read Book10 in its entirety. Merely skirting the edges. A flirty butterfly. So far.

Thanks for the quote and relating it to Dante. The Myth of Er does stand out. I can understand why some consider Book 10 'weird'. But it does show the magnificence of Plato's writing.

In Dante, of course, there is no return. The location of the placards on the front or back sends a chill down my spine. — Paine

Yes. The judgements based on one's life can't be seen by the offender. So, there is no recourse against any misinterpretation by the judges, whoever and how 'righteous' they are. I'll have to read this.
Just as well I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell. I am surely damned :naughty:

I decided rather than continue with @Fooloso4' Book 10 discussion that I need to read the whole Republic. To place it and @Jamal's Book1 thread in context. To try to understand what it's all about.

I wondered about the best way to approach The Republic. And something that would provide me with much-needed motivation. To engage with a bit more background.

How to Read Plato's Republic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZhFXMwVEF6c

I enjoyed this. Some of my notes:

To read slowly and carefully as an active conversation with the author.
To ask what is the ruling principle of the philosopher you are reading. It is suggested that Plato's most important issue concerns 'How to Live'. And this is a learning exercise.
To feel free to disagree. To relate the Dialogue to real life. Current politics. To reconnect with the curiosity of a child. To enjoy asking questions. We are all born philosophers.
To use imagination to read the Republic as a novel, a play.
To consider the ideas of Utopian/Dystopian literature. The speculative building of a just city, the macro level of justice and morality - how it relates to the micro level - the just individual. Is it even possible?


***

And since I need to take care of my eyes, I looked for an audio version.
To relax for a first listen. To take it slowly. To take in the overall panorama:




Edit: The video is a condensed version. From the Comments, a helpful contents guide:

Book I - 0:35
Book II - 42:00
Book III - 1:16:27
Book IV - 1:32:30
Book V - 1:58:30
Book VI - 2:33:20
Book VII - 3:04:59
Book VIII - 3:22:21
Book IX - 3:42:30
Book X - 4:27:40

I decided rather than continue with Fooloso4' Book 10 discussion that I need to read the whole Republic. — Amity

I think in discussions of Plato we are doing at least two things:

1) Discussing ideas and issues that arise in the part of the dialogue we are reading.
2) Discovering how those ideas and issues are addressed by Plato in the larger context of the whole of the dialogue and other dialogues.

We all start with the first. We might do this without ever going too far into the second.

Thanks. Most helpful. I've responsed to that and your addition in your thread. I've bolded the important part for me:

I'll add that those involved in the dialogue do not know where it will go or how it will end. We can imagine ourselves to be participants of the dialogue and add our responses to what is being said. — Fooloso4

Returning to Plato's Republic and @Jamal 's reading and lecture recommendations in his thread:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15484/poets-and-tyrants-in-the-republic-book-i/p1
Putting this here, so I can easily find it again:



I've decided to stick to one translation. Jamal recommended:
Plato, Republic, translated by C. D. C. Reeve, Hackett (2004)
Free online version is available.

Following my response to @Paine here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/938479

The Myth of Er
Starts at p354 of the pdf Reeve translation, 614B. Ends p361, 621c.

SOCRATES: Well, it is not an Alcinous-story I am going to tell you, but that of a brave man called Er, the son of Armenias, by race a Pamphylian.

Once upon a time, he was killed in battle. On the tenth day, when the rest of the dead were picked up, they were already putrefying, but he was picked up still quite sound. When he had been taken home and was lying on the pyre before his funeral on the twelfth day, he revived and, after reviving, told what he had seen in the other world. — The Republic - trans. C.D.C. Reeve

Just wanted to say I respect C.D.C Reeve's translations. I prefer others for different reasons, but he is very consistent in his use of phrases.

Just wanted to say I respect C.D.C Reeve's translations. I prefer others for different reasons, but he is very consistent in his use of phrases. — Paine

Yes, so far I find him easy on my eyes. I'm only 'sticking' with one translation to make it easier, for me.
I appreciate other interpretations. Widens the scope for improved understanding. A joint endeavour :sparkle:

The Myth of Er.
Here comes 25 mins of a slow and clear narration with amazing illustrations each step of the way. :fire: :100:

Escaping from Ancient Greece and Plato. To Vienna, Austria and the park of Schönbrunn Palace.
A beautiful baroque setting for summer night concerts. La magie en plein air.
Vienna Philharmonic – Offenbach: Les Contes d'Hoffmann: Barcarolle (SNC 2020)


The themes of love and beauty are from Jacques Offenbach’s opera “The Tales of Hoffman”. The opening lines set the tone:

Belle nuit, ô nuit d’amour
Souris à nos ivresses
Nuit plus douce que le jour
Ô,belle nuit d’amour!

Lovely night, oh, night of love
Smile upon our joys!
Night much sweeter than the day
Oh beautiful night of love!

https://beatcrave.com/w3/the-meaning-behind-the-song-barcarolle-from-the-tales-of-hoffman-by-offenbach/

Music on my mind. The Why rather than the What.

Yesterday, I needed a counter-balance to Death and its Aftermath.
I turned to music and Classic FM where the Barcarolle was playing. It immediately brought back memories of Mum who loved it and the Vienna concerts. It will be the 8th Anniversary of her death, soon. :flower:

Why play or listen to music? It can affect our mood and behaviour.

Then, I read of the outrage of Trump's use of it at his rallies. How he swayed to his playlist for 40 minutes. Apparently, switching away from questions after 2 people fainted due to heat.

The resort to music in place of angry, provocative rhetoric was not without its ironies. A long list of musical artists – including Celine Dion, Abba, Neil Young and Bruce Springsteen – have denounced or taken legal steps to stop the Trump campaign playing their songs at rallies.

On Tuesday, Rufus Wainright responded to Trump’s use at the Philadelphia rally of Wainwight’s cover of Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah by posting on Instagram that he was “mortified”, adding: “I’ve been supremely honored over the years to be connected with this ode to tolerance.

Witnessing Trump and his supporters commune with this music last night was the height of blasphemy.” Wainwright said before the 2016 election that he would not sing the song again unless Trump lost. — Guardian - Trump 'Let's Listen to Music' during campaign rally

Later, I watched 'Waco: the Aftermath' -

Coinciding with the 30th anniversary of the tragic events at Mt. Carmel that began on February 28, 1993, WACO: THE AFTERMATH focuses on the fallout of the Waco disaster: the trials of the surviving members of the Branch Davidian sect and the rise of homegrown terrorist, Timothy McVeigh. The five-episode limited series also provides a broader context for the escalation of the American militia movement, which foreshadows the infamous attacks of the Oklahoma City bombing and the storming of the U.S. Capitol on January 6.

The images of David Koresh, Waco and its aftermath, are disturbing to say the least.

Why is it that I see Trump in the same light. Someone who has been President and hopes to be again. A cult leader using religion and encouraging hate groups - his Proud Boys and more.

The Proud Boys is a North American all-male, far-right, neo-fascist militant organization that promotes and engages in political violence.

Domestic terrorism dancing to pop music. Seen as a Saviour by some 50% of American voters.

Amongst other things, Trump should be treated as a dangerous, domestic terrorist. He is an appeaser and fan of autocratic leaders. If he wins then he will be a tyrant. If he doesn't he will be a tyrant. All hell will break loose. To the sound of 'Hallelujah!'...

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even know the name
But if I did, well, really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light in every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

I think I'll stop reading and writing about politics. It gets me nowhere fast. Before I leave:

Thanks to @Wayfarer for this post: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/940092
The latest in a 7yr discussion about Trump. More dangerous than ever. Escalating threats to his political opponents calling them 'evil'.

It doesn't seem to matter that what he says or its implications. He has his believers or 'patriots'.
He also appeals to those not in the core pack.

If they vote for him, there will be no trouble. So, will people vote for 'peace' and protection by Trump.
Will they be fooled or frightened enough. This is reminiscent of Mafia tactics. Trump being the epitome of a fascist dictator. Another promise: if they vote for him, they won't need to worry about voting again.

From the same article in Wayfarer's post:

After being asked about Mr. Trump’s suggestion of turning the military against Americans, Mr. Youngkin replied that he didn’t believe that was what the president was saying. The network, he said, was “misinterpreting and misrepresenting his thoughts.”

"I’m literally reading his quotes to you,” Mr. Tapper replied. — The New York Times

People see what they want to see.

Having fun in Book 10 of Plato's Republic. Yes, I am! :cool:

Discussing the river Lethe - and its meaning. Is it about forgetfulness or carelessness? This has led to an exploration of Greek mythology. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/940663

Embedded in a fascinating site which shows 'Lethe' in different contexts, including Art and Music:
https://mythicalencyclopedia.com/lethe/
The sound of Lethe.

Lethe, the River of Forgetfulness · Chronotope Project · Jeffrey Ericson Allen

Feeling sad and blue. What music to turn to?

An old favourite. From 1974. Lesley Duncan - Everything Changes



***

A newer, slow version of a Labi Siffre fave from 1972 - Watch Me



***
Neil Young knows where the music's playing.
Because I’m still in love with you. I want to see you dance again...



Come a little bit closer
Hear what I have to say
Just like children sleeping
We could dream this night away
But there's a full moon rising
Let's go dancing in the light
We know where the music's playing
Let's go out and feel the night

***

Time for a slow waltz in my heart and mind. Everything changes, love travels on... :sparkle:

I hear you, friend of mine.

I hear you, friend of mine. — Paine

Thank you, dear friend, I hear you too. And others.
Right now, I'm listening out for and attending to whatever lifts my spirits or gladdens my heart.
I don't know that my own voice - alone - has the power.

I can't ignore the way of politics and the actions and effects of the powerful.
I can't bring myself to listen to the sickening voice and twisted face of divisive hatred and tyranny.

I hear another friend of mine @180 Proof - on the American Election result and the MAGA movement.

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

Please stay strong :flower:

So many words spilled. Observations made and questions asked. I engage briefly.
Trying to keep a balance.

Amongst all of this, we can hear other, different stories. Of an 'unlikely friendship' in a letter:

Sunk by Keir Starmer’s sycophantic words of congratulation to Donald Trump
‘Shoulder to shoulder’ | Time to abandon X | The Great Dictator | Lessons for the Democrats | Civil war averted | On otter pages

Thirteen pages in Wednesday’s print edition on the US election, and then that delightful story on page 17 (Otter’s bond with Shetland man features in documentary, 6 November) restored my faith in humanity.
Rhys Harrison — Guardian - Sycophantic Starmer - Letters US Election 2024

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/05/shetland-man-bond-otter-award-winning-film-billy-and-molly

Time to share our stories? To scream or silence our anxieties and hope, creatively?

It is important to consider and give a response. I need to take some time to make it more than an emotional reaction. I am presently fixing a hole where the rain gets in.

Sha La La La La:

I am presently fixing a hole where the rain gets in. — Paine

Ah, I embrace the poetic and practical you. Acting and reacting with more than emotion, important as that is. Lyrical words and ways to make sense of and stop a deluge or torrential flood.
I think of the old saws. Prevention is better than cure. A stitch in time saves nine.

'Presently' - includes an awareness of the past, what is going on or what might be.

I find myself a time traveller. The songs of the past haunting the present. The memories, histories and stories of what some might think of as a 'Golden Age'.
Listening to the poetry of the creatives in all ages.
The never-ending questions, problems and joys of individuals within the cascading pictures.
Free flowing interpretations and misinterpretations. Fixing what you can, when and how you can.
Semper Vigilans.

***
Fixing A Hole (Remastered 2009) · The Beatles
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band



I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in
And stops my mind from wondering
Where it will go

I'm filling the cracks that ran through the door
And kept my mind from wondering
Where it will go

And it really doesn't matter
If I'm wrong, I'm right
Where I belong, I'm right
Where I belong

When it comes to democracy, it does matter if we get it wrong. When freedom turns to abuse of power.

I'm wondering why you chose this piece. Is it a favourite or just something related to 'America'?
What it is and isn't. A complex arrangement of states, fine friends finding foes. Curious tastes of buddies and blows. Bodies in a flow of blood, sweat and tears. United in disunity or diversity?

The portrait of Bowie shows his startling asymmetry. A strange yet compelling, creative arrangement.
His music too a hybrid of styles. Moving outside the boundaries. Inventive. A fearless exploration.
I am not a Bowie fan but when I read his story, it intrigues me.

***

"United in diversity" is the motto of the European Union.
It's supposed to be about working for peace and prosperity. How is that working out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motto_of_the_European_Union

Being vigilant is not being a vigilante. But it may well come to that. If tyrannical laws are passed, who would become an outlaw. Prepared to go to prison for their beliefs and values? A Robin Hood, righting wrongs? [*]

Is there a philosophy of ethical vigilantism?

***

Ways to go on. One artist's perspective - Brian Cox:

As artists we have to bang the drum, we have to keep going,” he said in an interview with the Guardian. “We mustn’t put up with it. That’s why I admire people like Mark Ruffalo [a longtime advocate for social justice].
“I’m not going to give up on my criticism of Trump. I think it behoves artists to not give up, to keep the flag of truth flying, because it’s been so abused in recent years.”

“I look at the US and think it’s a fucking mess,” Cox said. “It doesn’t know who or where it is. Trump’s vitriol towards Harris during the campaign was unbelievable. [...]

What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide, there’s no question about it. It’s horrific. But it’s not going to get any better under Trump, because he’s a great friend of Netanyahu, so who’s going to be saying ‘stop it’ now, ‘behave yourself’?” He added: “I think the world has never been in a more dangerous place than it is at the moment.”

Cox also spoke about other crises he believed Americans would be facing, including reproductive rights and the climate crisis. “Women are being treated as second-class citizens in America and it has to stop, it’s gone on for far too long,” he said. “Nobody should be discussing what a woman should do with her body, only they should advocate for what happens to their body. How dare we make that assumption? It’s so retrograde.”

He added: “I can’t believe I’m living in the 21st century, because we don’t seem to progress as human beings. We seem to make the same mistake time and time again.
“The world’s in deep shit like never before. Trump’s not going to do anything about the climate crisis because he doesn’t believe it, no matter the evidence.

Cox was also insistent that he would “never play Trump”. He said: “I couldn’t play him for all the tea in China, there’s no virtue in him.” — Guardian - US Elections 2024

[emphasis added]

Why is it that for every step forward we seem to take 100 steps back.
In the blink of a an eye...blinded by gold.
Of a lying, bully boy with his rich and powerful pals. Deal-makers. Life breakers.
The winner takes it all.

***

[*] But even Robin Hood is just a tale, medieval - full of controversies and inequalities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood

Outlaw stories. Fact or fiction. Historical context. Can we find the real Robin Hood?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/robin_01.shtml

Still thinking about this:

6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ... — 180 Proof

[emphasis added]

I've just read an article by masculinity researcher, Richard Reeves, which seems to shed more light on the gender issues. And how the Democrats miscalculated.

A question for @180 Proof and any others - how much would you agree that there was too much emphasis and reliance on women votes re abortion?

I think you don’t win votes if you’re not fighting for them. And the Democrats didn’t really fight very hard for the votes of young men. But they could have said:

“There are so many progressive young women who are worried about the mental health of their boyfriend or brother. There are so many progressive women who wanted a party that would support their reproductive rights and do a better job of educating their son.” [...]

Democrats benched themselves from the argument about men

Instead, at the very last gasp, they started to say to men: “Well, if you care about the women in your life, you should vote for us. Or maybe the reason you’re not voting for us is because you’re secretly a little bit sexist?” Trying to either shame or guilt trip or scare men into voting Democrat was spectacularly unsuccessful.

What do the Democrats need to learn from this?

The danger is that they just say all these men became sexist, that they were lured by misogyny. The danger is Democrats believe they just need to double down on attacks on patriarchy and toxic masculinity. That would be disastrous.

Instead, they should show young men that they’ve got an agenda that’s more up their street. Instead of going on and on about cancelling student debt, which is not a popular policy among men, they should talk more about trade schools and manufacturing jobs. I hope that they’ll conclude that they need to win men back by explicitly pitching them, rather than trying to recruit them as allies to the cause of women, which is a political theory that they just tested to destruction.
— Guardian- Young men and the Election

There is more to the article. Worth reading for another perspective.
***

How many billions spent or wasted - so many celebrities and billionaires.
What a party, huh?!
The whole American electioneering farce sickens me.

The song has the tension of a nostalgia for a place that does not exist, at least yet. "Blossom fails to bloom."

There is a sense of shame in the negation. "Promise not to stare too long."

The chorus tells how we get by: "Sha La La La La."

There is a connection to the vibe in Kafka's Amerika: An ideal vision stuck living in a cramped cabin.

I am more personally connected the Who will Love Aladdin Sane generation: "Battle cries and champagne, just in time for sunrise."

But that is unambiguously nostalgic because it is not a "model of sustainability", shall we say.

A question for 180 Proof and any others - how much would you agree that there was too much emphasis and reliance on women votes re abortion? — Amity

I don't agree. Imo, Trump won because too many Democratic voters preferred not to vote rather than vote for a woman president just like in 2016. Biden won 15 million more votes in 2020 than Clinton won in 2016 and 13 million more votes than Harris won this year; however, Trump received about 1 million less than he did in 2020, so the election turnout drop-off was on the Dems side. As far as I can tell, too many Americans are still not "ready" for a woman president. :brow:

Thank you. I came on here at 3.50am - awake and troubled. I had thought to edit my post. Thinking I should really have responded to you in the appropriate Election thread.

Politics, the result and its consequences are clearly on my mind. However, I think I will avoid reading further in-depth discussion and analysis. Thanks for keeping your response brief and helpful.

Will only say this. I am glad that I don't live in a God-fearing, gun-toting country.
The seeming right to 'righteously' kill those who threaten your views. But who hold up their hands in horror and call abortion 'murder' of a person.

Human rights only considered of value if they are of a certain kind, colour and creed. The greed for gold and the rape of the world. For the few bastards in power.

In their absolutism, pretending with pietous, smug faces to be Godly 'good' while all the time being a force for what is the very opposite.
Fear, Hate and Destructive Divisions.

I'm tired of it all.

As far as I can tell, too many Americans are still not "ready" for a woman presiden — 180 Proof

Yes. I have one last read to share. It supports your view.

I spent hours trying to persuade US voters to choose Harris not Trump. I know why she lost - Oliver Hall

As a phone bank volunteer, I hoped to counter the Republican attacks and half-truths, but people really believed them.

Time and again, voters, very often women themselves, told me that they just didn’t think that “America is ready for a female president”. People said they couldn’t “see her in the chair” and asked if I “really thought a woman could run the country”. One person memorably told me that she couldn’t vote for Harris because “you don’t see women building skyscrapers”. Sometimes, these people would be persuaded, but more often than not it was a red line. Many conversations would start with positive discussions on policy and then end on Harris and her gender. That is an extraordinary and uncomfortable truth.

You should know what I didn’t hear during the hours speaking to US voters. I can only think of one occasion when someone mentioned stricter taxes on billionaires or any similar policies. The atrocities being committed by Israel in Gaza only came up six times in more than 1,000 calls.

After all those conversations, I think the main reason that Harris and Walz lost this campaign is simple: Trump. Ultimately, he was simply too much of a pull again. Despite the gaffes, despite his views on women, despite his distaste for democracy and despite an insurrection, voters just didn’t care.

For reasons that I’m sure will be studied for decades, when he speaks, people listen. When he speaks, people believe him. After all those calls, I can be shocked at this result, but hardly surprised.
— Guardian - Opinion - Kamala Harris

Thanks to you and others for sharing.
I've enjoyed listening and learning throughout this conversation.
Time to pack up for a break.
Take care, y'all :sparkle:

Thx :flower:

To you too :flower:

I've just read an article by masculinity researcher, Richard Reeves, which seems to shed more light on the gender issues. And how the Democrats miscalculated. — Amity

Badly, yes.

But I don't think this:

“There are so many progressive young women who are worried about the mental health of their boyfriend or brother. There are so many progressive women who wanted a party that would support their reproductive rights and do a better job of educating their son.” — Guardian- Young men and the Election

would have helped. The first reaction from the rightward press would be :"Are they calling all young men crazy?" I shudder to think what the Trump campaign would have made of that approach.

Susan Faludi covered this state of affairs it pretty well in her book Stiffed It's been evident for some time that the social, political and financial status of women, especially women of colour, has made rapid and accelerating progress in the last 25 years, while that of men in the same ethnic and class brackets has stagnated or declined. Given where each group was in 1990, the fact that women are still paid less, and what happened on the economic stage, that shows progress toward fairness.
But the affected men don't remember past conditions as wrong, don't experience the present as fair, and don't know enough to place the blame appropriately. (This is largely down to the shift in 'information' media, more than political rhetoric.) It's always easier to direct one's frustration and disappointment at the nearest target than at some billionnaire with the power to move your livelihood to the other side of the world, leave your town destitute and you, dependent on the wife's income.
Of course, there have always been canny political strategists to harness insecurity, frustration, anger and hurt pride. Especially hurt pride.
The single biggest mistake the Harris campaign made was that ad by Julia Roberts: "don't tell him". That was specifically directed against men. Seems many men are less bothered by being called rapists and garbage than the suggestion that their wives lie to them.

Instead of leaning so hard on the women's vote, Harris should have emphasized Biden's job creation and her plans to expand that - more detail in what union jobs will become available with the building program and renewable energy scheme. They should have put more emphasis on workers (that was working for about five minutes) and veterans and revitalizing the industrial base. They might have explained the effect on the productive classes of deregulation, offshoring and tariffs better. They should have come down hard on the 'protect women whether they like it or not' Trumpism, with something like "How dares that pudgy old rich guy take over as protector of your family?"
(They might also have covered border security much more forcefully, but that's not a gender issue.)