Guliani, Meadows charged in Arizona Fake Electors Scheme

An Arizona grand jury on Wednesday indicted seven attorneys or aides affiliated with Donald Trump’s 2020 presidential campaign as well as 11 Arizona Republicans on felony charges related to their alleged efforts to subvert Joe Biden’s 2020 victory in the state, according to an announcement by the state attorney general.

Those indicted include former Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, attorneys Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, John Eastman and Christina Bobb, top campaign adviser Boris Epshteyn and former campaign aide Mike Roman. They are accused of allegedly aiding an unsuccessful strategy to award the state’s electoral votes to Trump instead of Biden after the 2020 election. Also charged are the Republicans who signed paperwork on Dec. 14, 2020, that falsely purported Trump was the rightful winner, including former state party chair Kelli Ward, state Sens. Jake Hoffman and Anthony Kern, and Tyler Bowyer, a GOP national committeeman and chief operating officer of Turning Point Action, the campaign arm of the pro-Trump conservative group Turning Point USA.

Trump was not charged, but he is described in the indictment as an unindicted co-conspirator.

In a related article,

Republicans in four states are facing charges after submitting documents to Congress falsely claiming that Donald Trump won the 2020 presidential election in their states. Investigations are ongoing and more charges could be filed.

24April24

Today in Trumpenfraude:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/04/24/arizona-fake-electors-indictments/73184206007/

When one or more of the criminal co-conspirstors Rudy Guiliani, Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Jenna Ellis (all of whom are also indicted in Georgia), Christina Bobb, Boris Epshteyn & Michael Roman flip, the GOP (Gimps for Putin) candidate for president Unindicted Co-conspirator-1 ... again will be indicted in Arizona (probably by the end of May, just in time for his conviction in NYC). :cool: :up:

I'm not so sure this will lead to an indictment for Trump. It would be costly to do so, and there's no chance of a trial before the election. If Trump is elected, the case would be put on hold for 4 years - making it all the more questionable as a productive use of resources.

Jenna Ellis has already flipped on her boss in Georgia so it's more likely than not she will do it again in Arizona. Rudy Guiliani is due for a meltdown since he's filed for bankruptcy and can't afford to pay for legal defense in Georgia and now in Arizona. Christina Bobb was thrown under the bus by the boss for abetting Obstruction of Justice in the Florida Espionage case and therefore is probably cooperating with the Feds and will try to get a deal from Arizona prosecutors too. And so on ... Sworn testimony by two or more indicted co-conspirators will provide more than grounds for an Arizona Grand Jury to indict Unindicted Co-conspirator-1 sooner rather than later. No need for the trial to happen before the general election since additional indictnents (to the current 88) will only compound Sleepy Don's already considerable legal and financial problems to the detriment to his so-called "campaign" (to stay out of prison). And (if I were a betting man) my money is on the "J6 Conspiracy" trial in DC to start by September/October following Michigan's "Fake Electors" indictments of Unindicted Co-conspirator-1 by August.

"Wishful thinking?" TBD. :victory: :mask:

We hear daily that Trump is either leading or tying with Biden in polls. What I can't figure out is, what Trump voters think they're voting for. Trump, in the delusional monologues that pass for his campaign speeches, outlines no policies, presents no ideas, but raves and rambles about his enemies and what he'll do to them. (You'll remember that at the 2020 Republican Party convention, the Party abandoned the idea of presenting a policy platform, in favour of a simple declaration supporting Trump.)

There's a lengthy OP in the Washington Post (gift link) which discusses the idea that the reason for Trump's popularity is that he is harnessing hostility towards liberal principles amongst voters who want to destroy the current system. (This is also Steve Bannon's main focus.)

A healthy republic would not be debating whether Trump and his followers seek the overthrow of the Founders’ system of liberal democracy. What more do people need to see than his well-documented attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power with the storming of the U.S. Capitol, the elaborate scheme to create false electoral slates in key states, the clear evidence that he bullied officials in some states to “find” more votes, and to persuade Vice President Mike Pence not to certify the legitimate results? What more do they need to know than that Trump continues to insist he won that election and celebrates as heroes and “patriots” the people who invaded the U.S. Capitol and smashed policemen’s faces with the stated aim of forcing Congress to negate the election results? As one 56-year-old Michigan woman present at the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, explained: “We weren’t there to steal things. We weren’t there to do damage. We were just there to overthrow the government.”

Trump not only acknowledges his goals, past and present; he promises to do it again if he loses this year. For the third straight election, he is claiming that if he loses, then the vote will have been fraudulent. He has warned of uprisings, of “bedlam” and a “bloodbath,” and he has made clear that he will again be the promoter of this violence, just as he was on Jan. 6. Trump explicitly warned in 2020 that he would not accept the election results if he lost, and he didn’t. This year he is saying it again. Were there no other charges against him, no other reason to be concerned about his return to the presidency, this alone would be sufficient to oppose him. He does not respect and has never pledged to abide by the democratic processes established by the Constitution. On the contrary, he has explicitly promised to violate the Constitution when he deems it necessary. That by itself makes him a unique candidate in American history and should be disqualifying. .....

So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown.

So they don't want a better government, better economic policies, or better anything. What they want, is to bring down the whole system, because they don't accept the principles on which it was founded.

For two centuries, many White Americans have felt under siege by the Founders’ liberalism. They have been defeated in war and suppressed by threats of force, but more than that, they have been continually oppressed by a system designed by the Founders to preserve and strengthen liberalism against competing beliefs and hierarchies. Since World War II, the courts and the political system have pursued the Founders’ liberal goals with greater and greater fidelity, ending official segregation, driving religion from public schools, recognizing and defending the rights of women and minorities hitherto deprived of their “natural rights” because of religious, racial and ethnic discrimination. The hegemony of liberalism has expanded, just as Lincoln hoped it would, “constantly spreading and deepening its influence, and augmenting the happiness and value of life to all people of colors everywhere.” Anti-liberal political scientist Patrick Deneen calls it “liberal totalitarianism,” and, apart from the hyperbole, he is right that liberalism has been steadily deepening and expanding under presidents of both parties since the 1940s.

The fury on the anti-liberal right against what is today called “wokeness” is nothing new. Anti-liberal movements in America, whether in defense of the White race or Christianity, and more often both together, have always claimed to be suffering under the expanding hegemony of liberalism. They have always claimed that a liberal government and society were depriving them of their “freedom” to live a life according to Christian teachings and were favoring various minority groups, especially Black people, at their expense. In the 1970s, influential theologian R.J. Rushdoony complained that the Christian in America had “no right to his identity” but was forced to recognize “all others and their ‘rights.’” And he was correct if a Christian’s “rights” included the right not only to lead a Christian life oneself but to impose that life on the entire society, or if a White person’s “freedom” included the freedom to preserve white primacy in society. In the 19th century, enslavers insisted they were deprived of their “freedom” to hold human beings as property; Southerners in the post-Reconstruction era insisted on their “freedom” to oppress Black citizens in their states.

Today, anti-liberals in American society are indeed deprived of their “freedom” to impose their religious and racial views on society, on public schools, on the public square and on the laws of the nation. What Christian nationalists call “liberal totalitarianism,” the Founders called “freedom of conscience.”

The most rabid of the so-called Christian Nationalists want to impose a more or less 'Christian Sharia Law' to replace the constitution:

The influential advocate of “conservative nationalism,” Yoram Hazony, wants Americans to abandon the Declaration (of Independence) in favor of a nationhood built on Protestantism and the Bible. America is a “revolutionary nation,” Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) insists, not because of the principles of the Declaration and not even because of the American Revolution itself, but “because we are the heirs of the revolution of the Bible” that began with “the founding of the nation of Israel.” There could hardly be a statement more at odds with the American Founders’ liberal, ecumenical vision.

Expressing a belief in God is no threat to the Founders’ system, but reshaping society in accord with Christian teachings is. To build the nation Hawley and Hazony imagine would require jettisoning not only the Declaration but also the Constitution, which was designed to protect the Declaration’s principles. The Christian commonwealth would not and could not be a democracy because the majority of people can’t be trusted to choose correctly. According to the Claremont Institute’s Glenn Ellmers, “most people living in the United States today — certainly more than half — are not Americans in any meaningful sense of the term.” They are a “zombie” or “human rodent” who lives “a shadow-life of timid conformity.” Only “the 75 million people who voted in the last election” for Trump are true Americans. Instead of trying to compete with Democrats in elections that don’t reflect the will of the people, Ellmers writes, “Why not just cut to the chase and skip the empty, meaningless process?” The “only road forward” is “overturning the existing post-American order.”

When you consider that GOP representatives in multiple states are charged with election interference, and that a sizeable portion of the electorate doesn't believe that the last Presidential election was legitimate - well, there's some very dangerous forces at work here. One can only hope that Trump's track record of 'malevolence hobbled by incompetence', along with the basic common sense of a slightly larger proportion of the electorate, will prevail over this madness.

But it's not guaranteed.

What I can't figure out is, what Trump voters think they're voting for. — Wayfarer

They don't know what they're voting for in terms of politics, they aren't educated enough or they are so within their own bubble that they don't have any access to anything but the notion of "us and them". For them, politics is nothing more than a wrestling match. They want a "good guy" that is charismatic and talk like they do. They aren't intelligent enough to comprehend normal politics or understand political ideas; they flock to the emotional; to the experience of shouting in a group against the evil. They're no different from any other who fall to their knees in front of a father figure that can guide them to a better life.

It is basic religious fundamentalism in its mechanics.

well, there's some very dangerous forces at work here. — Wayfarer

Just as with any other religious fundamentalism. It's arguably the same mechanics as with the Nazi regime; the mechanics function the same as in any other time in history when there's a charismatic leader (in their eyes and ears), who promise them paradise.

It either goes two ways; the charisma fades away with the group's fanaticism fading away as generations die off and gets replaced with new holding less fundamentalism in their hearts. Or they grow to a point in which they believe themselves to hold enough power to just, take over. And at that point, if they are stronger than the rest, they will replace people in power and place the rest into fascist obedience. But more likely, if they try it, the rest will rise up and realize they need to push them back, resulting in civil war or major war.

They would call it revolution, but revolution has a distinct difference in that true positive revolution revolves around standing up against a government that has taken away the power of its citizens, while they strive for being the one taking away the power of the people (in their favor).

They effectively ends up being a fundamentalist terrorist group who's yet to have initiated violence, not counting the Jan 6 coup attempt and any unreported religious violence onto minorities that has happened without people's knowledge.

And as such they should be watched in the same way we have eyes on terrorist groups of the world. Especially if Trump loses the election I wouldn't be surprised if we see something far worse than Jan 6 happening. But regardless of how such a violent event plays out, it will spell the end for Maga in that any larger than Jan 6 violence happening will cement their status as a terrorist movement and only the most hardcore Maga folks will keep wearing those hats.

The "normal" people are basically just waiting for a legitimate reason to remove these people from power. And any political support of violence against US citizens will be such a hard line that any protection these politicians had before such events will be gone and they will be removed by force. If they then try to provoke further violence, well that's when the entire movement will be officially registered a terrorist group.

If that happen, it would also spell the breakpoint for the republican party. The ones opposing Trump would eject anyone even close to supporting Trump or the Maga movement, or, they'll leave the Republican party as a rotting corpse while they start a new party with the focus on being the real republicans, promising to never let similar "terrorists" into their party. Cleaning their history and washing away any filth stains from it.

However things go, there will be a fulcrum point that tips things in some direction. But I'm too optimistic to see anything other than the utter collapse of Maga through self-destruction. They're too stupid to function as a revolutionary movement. They're too stupid to uphold any momentum of such actions. They're basically children playing with fire and when they effectively burn the house down they will face the consequences. They shouldn't be underestimated, but we shouldn't overestimate their ability either. They may have guns and explosives, but if violence erupts into insurrection, we have to remember that revolutionary movements in the world and history actually had training and intelligence behind their attempts. These people aren't revolutionary masterminds and within a nation like the US, any revolutionary action would require an extremely intelligent strategy that fools the entire military.

And if Trump wins, if he tries anything like this himself, I don't think the rest of the government or military will actually listen. If Trump starts to initiate violence against his own citizens, that's gonna be a fast ticket to his downfall.

The only reason we're not seeing enough pushback at the moment is that Trump and his followers are just barely on the side of democratic rights. But in a nation like the US, any attempt to remove the constitution or demolish the basic fundamentals of how people define the US will result in a strong pushback, maybe even outright violent pushbacks against Trump and his followers.

What I can't figure out is — Wayfarer

This is really about you more than it is about them.

I despise Biden. For many reasons. There's been no strong response to these campuses protests which involve vandalism (and apparently now hostage taking) and protestors barring Jewish students from campus in scenes reminiscent of the 1930s in Europe. He's made our border much less secure and we've seen a marked rise in illegals. Our country is decidedly less safe and less civilized than it was in the past. I go into convenience stores and big box retailers and $30 items are locked up. Zero civic trust.

He routinely makes a mockery of his own "faith." He made the sign of the cross at an abortion rally a few days ago. He stands for nothing. He is neither mentally not physically fit to hold office yet the Democrats bolster him up while others run the show. Nobody likes him and seemingly the only thing going for him is that he isn't Trump. That's his brand. The best thing he could do is step aside but he wouldn't as he is a dinosaur and a career politician and he has an ego which frequently leads him to being fucking ridiculous like bragging to Howard Stern on his radio show that women in the 70s sent him scandalous pics when he was in Congress. Gotta let everyone know what a stud you are.

No wonder other countries don't respect us. We have a guy who strives desperately for the approval of popular radio hosts like Stern. He's so insecure. Hoping one day to gain the respect of others like Stern which stems from a deep seeded insecurity about his own self-worth. America's status in the world has declined under Biden.

We hear daily that Trump is either leading or tying with Biden in polls. What I can't figure out is, what Trump voters think they're voting for. — Wayfarer

They want the border closed, more conservative SCOTUS judges appointed, more drilling, more refineries, a kickass foreign policy, less EV's, less environmental regulations, the public education system dismantled, accountability for Covid lockdowns, more police, trans/gay folk marginalized, Jan 6th protesters pardoned, etc.

trans/gay folk marginalized — RogueAI

I don't think Trump is anti-gay, but his anti-trans rhetoric seems mostly aimed at prevent kids from transitioning and "trans ideology" as opposed to actually blocking HRT access to trans adults. We've seen the rates of self-reported transgenderism skyrocket in the past few decades. One can be supportive of trans individuals while at the same time being critical of a movement which seemingly just lets in anyone and now apparently includes non-binary under the trans label. Take it from someone who works in the community.

tbh I see men who are very unhappy gravitate here not because they're really feminine but because they a) want to try something new and b) they hope transition will cure their unhappiness. And while they may climb the sexual hierarchy and be able to attract more partners it often comes at the cost of sterilizing themselves. If an adult wants to make that decision fine, but please don't promote it to kids.

What I can't figure out is, what Trump voters think they're voting for. — Wayfarer

It's never been a mystery to me – formerly a 7 year black resident of the "ruby red" deep south following 13 years in the once "bright red" gun-crazed, desert southwest US – that MAGA (Make Apartheid Great Again) cult followers and non-cult supporters, who have taken over the GOP (Gimps of Putin), are 'voting' for a patriarchal, white ethnostate dictatorship. No doubt, my friend, there will be blood, especially when it becomes undeniable even to them that their bankrupted, convicted, possibly by then imprisoned Dear Cult Leader will lose the "anti-Trump blowout" reelection of POTUS & the Dems.

May Day Eve – my fear today is, however, that MAGA terrorists will try to make the US ungovernable (therefore, acutely vulnerable to national security threats from Russia, China and/or the Middle East) in the weeks and months following, if not before, the ROEvember election. The US military may have to be deployed to impose Martial Law, reminiscent of the 'state of emergency' during the weeks after "9-11" (but worse by an order of magnitude) in order to secure federal, state & local elections and to protect key officials and vital infrastructure. :fire: :mask:

Right, how could I forget? MAGA also believes whites are being persecuted worse than any other people in history.

So they don't want a better government, better economic policies, or better anything. What they want, is to bring down the whole system, because they don't accept the principles on which it was founded. — Wayfarer

They don't know what they're voting for in terms of politics, they aren't educated enough or they are so within their own bubble that they don't have any access to anything but the notion of "us and them". — Christoffer

Anarchists, who are not well educated in politics, or moral and social philosophy in general, are the modern day libertarians.

I'm too optimistic to see anything other than the utter collapse of Maga through self-destruction. They're too stupid to function as a revolutionary movement. They're too stupid to uphold any momentum of such actions. — Christoffer

My thoughts also. I'm sure the polling data is misleading and that they will be punished at the ballot box.

It's never been a mystery to me — 180 Proof

Yes, well I guess the other predominant emotion I'm feeling is dissappointment. I thought the US was better than that, although a lot of people here tell me that it's naive.

At the end of the day, while the wheels of justice are turning very slowly, they are turning, and they have a kind of inexorability about them. (In today's hearings, Trump has been threatened with incarceration if he keeps up his insults.)

(Today's) testimony offered another remarkable moment in a trial whose early days have been full of them: a former president and current Republican nominee watching helplessly as two strangers exposed details of a sex scandal that he had fought to keep secret.

It also underscored the wide array of evidence at the prosecution’s disposal as it assembled its case against the former president. On Tuesday alone, prosecutors elicited live testimony from Mr. Davidson and three other witnesses, a string of provocative text messages, videos of Trump campaign events and excerpts from a deposition the former president gave in a separate case — all woven into a story that they say paints Mr. Trump as a criminal. — NYTimes

May Day Eve – my fear today is, however, that MAGA terrorists will try to make the US ungovernable (therefore, acutely vulnerable to national security threats from Russia, China and/or the Middle East) in the weeks and months following, if not before, the ROEvember election. The US military may have to be deployed to impose Martial Law, reminiscent of the 'state of emergency' during the weeks after "9-11" (but worse by an order of magnitude) in order to secure federal, state & local elections and to protect key officials and vital infrastructure. :fire: :mask: — 180 Proof

Interesting you say this. I was wondering if this might be the path events take.

I love Gimps of Putin... :lol:

, from my interactions with some of those folk, I think some of your comments are fairly accurate.

Anarchists — Metaphysician Undercover

Maybe some. But otherwise evangelical types, Mormons, angry hardliners, ..., all the way through mad conspiracy theorists, ...
My impression is that extremism is (getting) more common than I thought a few years back — note there are also intellectuals stoking the fires.
In part, things seen before in the history books.

Anarchists, who are not well educated in politics, or moral and social philosophy in general, are the modern day libertarians.

The only thing an educated person can do politically is glorify and aggrandize the state, or disguise their statism as social and political philosophy, which is the direct consequence of their state education.

In any case, I’d love to see an educated refutation of any one of the aforementioned political stances, morally and socially, if you care to try.

, the Clown isn't anti-state. Just pro-Clown-state.

↪NOS4A2, the Clown isn't anti-state. Just pro-Clown-state. — jorndoe

:smirk:

No matter his politics and affinities, his mere presence among the effete political class is enough to expose the scam. Look at them go.

my fear today is, however, that MAGA terrorists will try to make the US ungovernable (therefore, acutely vulnerable to national security threats from Russia, China and/or the Middle East) in the weeks and months following, if not before, the ROEvember election — 180 Proof

Yeah, they'd be handing those other forces a gift.

The Clown supporters I've chit-chatted with don't think about or care that their efforts add to efforts beyond their neighborhood against them — Mar 12, 2024

Was The Donald on the move back in 1963? :)

:rofl:

A consistent feature of your program is that the clear connection between the very wealthy and the "effete political class" never appears in your analysis. Private interests can and do direct public affairs. The shock you delight in the discomfiture Trump elicits has nothing to do with why he is an asset for certain interests.

So they don't want a better government, better economic policies, or better anything. What they want, is to bring down the whole system, because they don't accept the principles on which it was founded. — Wayfarer

What I can't figure out is, what Trump voters think they're voting for. — Wayfarer

My theory is that are motivated to halt, or roll back social changes (e.g.normalization of the LGBTQ communities, perceived special treatment for minorities), and are fed up with the way the goverment works - the negative impacts of government bureaucracy, as well as foreign entanglements. They want a superman who uses his superpowers to solve our most important problems. Trump promises to do the impossible, and thus appeals to their wishes. As example: in 2016, building a (Mexico funded) border wall that was perceived as a solution to many problems (eg unwanted migration, drug trafficking)- an alleged simple solution to a complex set of problems.

It's not that they actively want to do unconstitutional or illegal things, per se, it's that Trump doesn't concern himself with those impediments, so they don't have to even think about those things. They trust Trump will find a way.

Agree. I think the normalisation of LGBTQ rights and 'inclusiveness mandates' are big factors, but opposing them is to be automatically characterised as racist and bigoted. Hence the drawing power of a larger-than-life figure who makes unabashedly racist and bigoted statements. He provides the 'permission space' by saying what you're really thinking and taking it to the perceived authorities of political correctness, particularly the so-called 'liberal media'. (And I even sympathise to some extent, the mandatory political correctness of the mainstream media here in Australia, especially in regard to gender politics, is grating in the extreme.)

On the other hand, I think the upshot of a second Trump presidency - which I don't believe will happen - will be disastrous in ways that his followers don't anticipate. He could quite literally cause a massive global financial or military crisis, leading to enormous social disruption and poverty, out of pique and aggrievement. They don't seem to see that, or care about it. As I said above, he has no policies as such, nor any idea of what the Presidency or government is about, save as a vehicle for his own ego and interests.

I’ve spoken about the influence of dark money on the previous 2 federal elections, and it seems to favor one particular side. You might want to looks into it instead of becoming the end product.

How does that observation relate to the money behind Trump?

It relates to the very wealthy and the political class, a connection you’re now trying to disguise.

I disguise it by bringing the topic up?