I think the uploaded mind would act like a person and swear it's conscious, but there would be no way to actually verify if it is or not. If the original isn't destroyed in the process, you would have two things (I guess each one is a person) that swear they're conscious.

In the case of the organic-brain one, I guess we continue to assume it's conscious, but what do we assume about the digital-brain one? If it's being simulated on a computer, then you have a situation where if you have enough electronic switches (or Q-bits?) and turn them off and on in a certain way, you have...the subjective experience of a sunset?...the pain of stubbing a toe?...the taste of chocolate ice cream? Can conscious experience be created that way? If I just put enough logic gates together and manipulate them in certain way(s), voila! conscious experience? That seems absurd to me.

what is a book? Doesn't it amount to uploading one's thoughts onto the worldwide booknet? A mind is identified with its contents (ideas, weltanschauungs) and not with its function as a information processor, oui? As a thinker I'm no different from you, yourself one; however, I'm an agnostic, that's what defines me in the theological universe and you maybe a theist and that's who you are. A person's mind is the unique set of thoughts (concepts, ideas, other information) that they possess and so can be extracted, stored, accessed by a computer and that's, in my humble opinion, what mind uploading is essentially. :grin:

what is a book? Doesn't it amount to uploading one's thoughts onto the worldwide booknet? A mind is identified with its contents (ideas, weltanschauungs) and not with its function as a information processor, oui? As a thinker I'm no different from you, yourself one; however, I'm an agnostic, that's what defines me in the theological universe and you maybe a theist and that's who you are. A person's mind is the unique set of thoughts (concepts, ideas, other information) that they possess and so can be extracted, stored, accessed by a computer and that's, in my humble opinion, what mind uploading is essentially. :grin: — Agent Smith

I question this.

If I write down all my concepts, ideas, other information in a book, is that book now my mind? Is not the information processor also required to be added to the book, in order to even begin to consider it as a mind?

I have yet to read a book in my Kindle Library called, "Transfer." It deals with such imagined technology and philosophy. There is, however, real progress being made towards productions of this sort.

Extensive development on this type of technology remains undone

There would need to be similar cognitive architectures, brain and machine wise

. What would such a machine look like?

1. As noted, it would have to emulate the brain. Starting from scratch, the emulated brain would have to mimic most if not all neuro-structure and neuro-chemical behavior. It would basically be a computerized copy. This is the copy concept of mind-uploading.

2. The second type of mind uploading is direct brain to machine insertion. In the prequels to the Dune series, there are beings known as Cymeks who are machines with human brains. These implanted brains are in a fluid and connect through various outlets to the machine body.

3. Thirdly, there is machines being put in brains, rather than brains put into machine(see 2) There is multiple patent devices and actually constructed one's that in theory can be implanted in the brain that would replace some specialized brain function. As in the case of the "artificial hippocampus", Elon Musk's neurolink, and some others.

There are metaphysical conundrums with this kind of technology but I will not elicit further obstacles or posit solutions in this comment. Why? I am sure its been done here before.

It cannot be done for the same reason disembodied brains show no mental states. Mental states are a one-to-one ratio to states of the body as a functioning whole.

Chalmer and Deutsch have some pretty weird thoughts on the subject. Fact is that a simulated simulation process like happens in a brain is no real simulation.

Lewin Genidentity -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genidentity

You have to try to isolate whatever a "mind" is. But we don't even know what it is.

So, no, I highly doubt it.

Thanks for the link!

I question this.

If I write down all my concepts, ideas, other information in a book, is that book now my mind? Is not the information processor also required to be added to the book, in order to even begin to consider it as a mind? — PhilosophyRunner

The information processor is, to my reckoning, generic i.e. nothing about it identifies an individual as distinct from another. If we all think logically, we assume we do, then inputting the same premises will lead to the same conclusion. In other words what distinguishes you from me is the content of our minds.

Emulation is a more exact replication compared to simulation. A clone would be an emulated replicant not a simulation. I am not convinced that electronic tech will be able to emulate a human consciousness but advances in quantum computing and the creation of organic computers in the future may eventually allow this. When genetic engineering, quantum/electronic computing all merge into one then I think the transhuman will reach a point pretty close to immortality as the storage of many backup copies of 'you,' may become trivial. Probabilistic accidental death has always been suggested as the eventual terminator for any projected longevity of human lifespan but the idea of backups might reduce that probability to close to 0. I think we are talking at least a few million years in the future however.
I read a New Scientist article recently that suggested that if all current technologies in the area are taken into account, the first person to live to between 135 and 170 years is alive today.
I assume that person will be one of the richest. The majority of the planet will be lucky to get close to the traditional threescore and ten.

A cargo cult is an indigenist millenarian belief system, in which adherents perform rituals which they believe will cause a more technologically advanced society to deliver goods. These cults were first described in Melanesia in the wake of contact with allied military forces during the Second World War.

Notable examples of cargo cult activity include the setting up of mock airstrips, airports, airplanes, offices, and dining rooms, as well as the fetishization and attempted construction of Western goods, such as radios made of coconuts and straw. Believers may stage "drills" and "marches" with sticks for rifles and use military-style insignia and national insignia painted on their bodies to make them look like soldiers, thereby treating the activities of Western military personnel as rituals to be performed for the purpose of attracting the cargo.

________________________

I see similarities between the cargo cults and the absurd, unscientific fantasy of mind-uploading.

Fantastic! All for the sake of cargo?

It's quite a complicated (and very interesting) business in reality: https://www.anthroencyclopedia.com/entry/cargo-cults

I can see the similarities. The mind uploaders are the cargo cultivists.

"Mind uploading, also known as whole brain emulation (WBE), is the theoretical futuristic process of scanning a physical structure of the brain accurately enough to create an emulation of the mental state (including long-term memory and "self") and transferring or copying it to a computer in a digital form." — Haglund

This is error in thinking. No, it could not be done because perception doesn't happen only in the brain -- but through other organs as well. The brain is not a depository of a complete picture or story that one could extract and upload somewhere. Your amputated arm would itch still. The roughness of a surface doesn't reside in the brain, but in the touch -- the fingers bring alive the sensation of roughness, and once you're not touching that surface anymore, the brain won't retain the roughness. We have memory of how a sandpaper feels, true, but that memory would not translate, if you tried to extract roughness through the brain, it would not translate into "roughness".

If anything, you could try to save the mind to a disk or thumbdrive. Then when you try to watch or listen to it, it would be blank or "this file could not be opened". Because unlike the DNA, there's no mapping with mind to structure.

In what format are they thinking of uploading the mind? .docx? or .exe? .jpg? :wink:

So what to think of the conjecture about mind uploading? — Haglund

It's a non-starter because it assumes 'substance dualism' which is inconsistent with both the 'principle of causal closure' and 'conservation laws'. I think a more plausible conjecture is a brain transplant into a synthetic body or machine-system.

It's a non-starter because it assumes 'substance dualism' which is inconsistent with both the principle of causal closure and conservation laws. I think a more plausible conjecture is brain transplantation into a synthetic body or machine-system — 180 Proof

Très bien, mon ami!

Simple! To add, we may need to transplant our GI tract too. You know, to not lose our gut instincts! :grin:

Causal closure and energy conservation are no problem for mind extraction. If my soul is sucked out of me, my brain and body just move on in darkness. The pre-established harmony will just be broken.

:sweat:

Furthermore ...

I can conceive of a synthetic mind-substrate extension of the organic mind-substrate whereby the continuity of self-aware personal identity (i.e. "consciousness") is, in effect, transferred from the latter to the former without being interrupted by – prior to – irreversible organic mind-substrate (brain)-death. — 180 Proof

In what format are they thinking of uploading the mind? .docx? or .exe? .jpg? — L'éléphant

.hahastillhere

What's the difference between an emulation and a simulation?

Furthermore ...
I can conceive of a synthetic mind-substrate extension of the organic mind-substrate whereby the continuity of self-aware personal identity (i.e. "consciousness") is, in effect, transferred from the latter to the former without being interrupted by – prior to – irreversible organic mind-substrate (brain)-death.
— 180 Proof — 180 Proof

Well, that's great, but I feel it's advisable to get the opinion of an immortal before we get all busy trying to upload our minds onto all kinds of stuff (the process began in earnest with paper). What if we succeed and someone comes up to us and says "Eternal life...not what you think!"? :chin:

What if we succeed and someone comes up to us and says "Eternal life...not what you think!"? :chin: — Agent Smith

Well, for a start, we can tell him to fuck off :smirk: ...

[ ... ] If and when "immortality" is technologically achieved, let's hope it comes with an easy-to-flip, easy-to-reach (though secret, or subjective / interior) off-switch. — 180 Proof

Indeed, the kill switch. I completely forgot about that! Always comes in handy when things go sideways! :up:

Can minds be uploaded in computers? — Haglund

I can't believe that someone in here could ask such a question! :gasp:

Yes Alkis, someone finally did! :smile:

Or did you mean all in here are mindless?

Okay. A possible answer. Create, locally, a low mind pressure area around the mind to upload. Excite the subject. The person gets out of their mind. Apply the low mind pressure region and as soon the excited mind is drawn in, seal the region to conserve. Look for a new subject, let them get out of their mind again, and inject the collected mind. Upload complete!