If only I could sit as comfortably doing nothing as you — Xtrix

Nothing, of course, is exactly what you have been doing. Much to the delight of the democrats.

No, they’re at where they are on the environment because of activism— which is a far better place than we’d be under Trump, who you were helping get re-elected.

There has been progress made. The democrats are not the republicans. Not all democrats are bought by corporate interests, and of the majority who are — there are different interests in play, not simply big oil.

I know you don’t like nuance, so you can skip all this.

‎

If you need to paint me as a DNC apologist, again that’s your own business. — Xtrix

We know democrats are bought by corporate interests, and not on our side — indeed — Xtrix

Correct. I don't flag carry for them, yet I'm (gasp) still able to recognize obvious political realties which I realize are too hard for you. Hence why you couldn't answer questions about which senators you had in mind who would "take Manchin and Sinema's place" (I gave you one possibility myself) and why you cannot name a single thing you've done to change anything whatsoever -- while denying your fatalism, of course. I can imagine you in the 60s: "That Democratic apologist MLK being duped into believing anything will change."

You have "hope" that people will see through the straw man you've created to represent me, and I've yet to see anyone as big a failure at helping people do so than you. You're driving them to hopelessness and apathy.

Stop pretending to care about anything other than your own political hobbyism. In the meantime the real work, as always, will be conducted by those who aren't stuck in intellectual adolescence.

"Democrats as evil as Republicans." "Trump evil as Biden." Always riveting (and predictable) analysis.

With all the smoke you blow, you couldn't even make the simplest of choices in the 2020 election. And still won't admit there's any difference between Trump and Biden. That about says it all for me.

The result of all the Zizek reading I guess. A pseudo-intellectual's intellectual.

I hear Jordan Peterson saying things along your lines. Probably more on your level. Check him out.

There are other provisions in the bill, as well — $550 billion for various climate initiatives, none of which would be a reality if it weren’t for activism, and certainly not if Trump got a second term. Is this “worse”? — Xtrix

Until that’s given, I’ll continue pushing for better policies in the world we have, which unfortunately is a two-party system largely owned by corporate interests in a state capitalist system, with the ultimate goal of destroying capitalism AND the state (which is way, way off and will almost certainly not happen in our lifetimes).

If you have better suggestions in the meantime, I’m all ears. — Xtrix

The only cynics are those who look at the existing state of affairs and think: there can be no other possible way. — StreetlightX

What’s hard is organizing with others, taking collective action, protesting in the streets (which I hate), using the courts, registering voters, educating people, raising money, corresponding with state and local leaders, getting involved in local government, sitting on boards, crafting proposals, creating petitions and referenda, etc. — Xtrix

Plenty of things to be done, and which I will continue to do.

But it must be nice using nihilism as a cover for sitting at home jerking off to Zizek.

https://www.liberationnews.org/right-wing-democrats-gut-social-program-budget-after-biden-refuses-to-fight/

"Biden’s shameful surrender stems from the fundamental approach he adopted towards this struggle. Instead of seeking to pile as much pressure as possible on the right wing holdouts within his own party, Biden voiced only the mildest of criticism. Biden remarked at a public event in Baltimore last week, “Joe [Manchin] is not a bad guy. He’s a friend.” And Biden did indeed treat Manchin like a friend, agreeing to his demands to cut from the budget a wide range of programs that would have provided major relief to workers.

...The Biden administration is heavily emphasizing that over $500 billion is allocated in his new framework for climate change related measures. But the majority of this would be spent in the form of tax credits that big corporations would be best positioned to take advantage of, and other subsidies aimed at bolstering “green” capitalists. It is unclear how much of this would actually make its way to concrete actions to reduce carbon emissions. 

...Biden and the rest of the Democratic Party had many tools at their disposal to force Manchin and Sinema to reverse their disgusting, anti-worker stand. They could have cut them off from campaign funds, removed them from their committee assignments, refused to consider any legislation they propose, supported primary challenges, or called for mass actions to add to the pressure. But instead they could barely muster the courage to even criticize the right wing duo in the media."

--

Huh would you look at that. Biden's green acheivement will have been to effect a giant wealth transfer of public money to corporations under the cover of environmentalism. This must have been what some people meant about "where they are on the environment". Who could have seen this coming? It's almost like he did the same thing as the plutocrat genital sucking democrat before him. And the one before him. My gosh, it's like this is the one thing the democrats are able to get done, ever. Also increasing funding to cops that kill minorities but who cares about that lol they wore kente scarves that one time. "Activism" lol. "Get stuff [wealth transfers] done" lol. "Hope" [for donors] lol. Clowns.

In recent news, Manchin has once again called for a pause right before the BBB bill can be agreed upon citing his concerns on the debt and inflation. At best this means he's waiting for a CBO score before supporting it but who knows how long that will take. At worst it means he's looking to kill the bill as many have feared by holding out... again.

Strangely enough, the response from the Dems have been pretty calm. Jayapal has just stated that she and the progressives plan to vote for the BIF anyways and they feel optimistic that the BBB will pass with assurances from Biden. The White House response has been similarly hopeful.

So what should we make of all this? Is Manchin just putting up a show to make himself look like some fiscally conservative politician? Perhaps he's given the progressives private assurances that he will support the bill. Otherwise I can't imagine them caving so easily and so quickly but that is what it looks like from the outside.

Strangely enough, the response from the Dems have been pretty calm... Otherwise I can't imagine them caving so easily and so quickly but that is what it looks like from the outside. — Mr Bee

A fun thought experiment to try on: for a month, treat the democrats (all the democrats, the entire party, not just one or two of them) as though they are a party actively hostile to progressive change. One that actively seeks to make things worse, on behalf of their corporate sponsors. You might surprise yourself with how often you will stop being 'surprised' and 'unable to imagine them caving so easily' and start seeing it as a normal pattern of behaviour that is totally in line with what they do on a day to day basis. Measure the democrats on a purely outcome-based metric, and bracket their self-stylings and the ways in which they portray themselves. Just for a month. See what happens to one's sense of constant surprise at their so-called 'failures'. Perhaps they will begin to look like what they are - achievements. Expect the worst from them and watch how those expectations will be fulfilled, rather than thwarted.

The delay is probably them looking for additional mechanisms to funnel taxpayer money into corporate hands.

Who could have seen this coming? — StreetlightX

Only those who do nothing except jerk off Zizek, apparently. How special you are.

I actually jerk off to democratic failure because that way I get off every hour. It's exhausting.

Otherwise I can't imagine them caving so easily and so quickly but that is what it looks like from the outside. — Mr Bee

The progressive caucus has surprised me so far. If they cave and vote on the “bipartisan” bill, that’ll be disappointing. I don’t see indications of that happening yet. Manchin seems pretty riled up about it, because he wants that bill passed so he can gut the BBB bill more or kill it completely.

The BBB bill has already been destroyed, of course, so it barely matters at this point.

Yeah, we know about your favorite hobby, beyond political hobbyism. Thanks for clarification. Very witty.

Anytime. Just happy to know that my pleasuring myself is something you think about :kiss:

One that actively seeks to make things worse, on behalf of their corporate sponsors. — StreetlightX

Yes, let’s live in a fantasy world without nuance or evidence, where every senator is bought by the same interests and all operate on the same principles.

This from a guy who sees everything so clearly that he actively helped Trump get re-elected. After all, what difference would it have made?

Biggest fraud on the forum.

This from a guy who sees everything so clearly that he actively helped Trump great re-elected. — Xtrix

Hey I'm not the democratic party don't be mean.

If only I could live in your fantasy world. Then I could excuse myself for doing nothing too. :ok:

If they cave and vote on the “bipartisan” bill, that’ll be disappointing. I don’t see indications of that happening yet. — Xtrix

Jayapal has already signalled she's gonna continue with the plan to get a vote on the BIF and they'll take a "leap of faith" on Biden's word that he will get his vote in the end.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1455246896847589376

Personally I think it's probably more to it than that since they did not seem shaken at all in their resolve from this morning when it looked like the BBB was on a path to a vote this week. I mean Manchin isn't Sinema. At least they can talk to him.

I think this is misreading what Jayapal is saying. She's willing to vote on both, and is leaving the convincing of Manchin to Biden. She says she's not in direct contact with Manchin.

To overlook what the CPC is doing right now is insanity. In reality, it's a very positive sign indeed. If I could snap my fingers and get rid of nearly everyone in congress, congress itself, capitalism itself, etc., I would. But that's not a reality. I think it a good idea to understand what's going on, beyond Twitter slogans.

I think this is misreading what Jayapal is saying. She's willing to vote on both, and is leaving the convincing of Manchin to Biden. She says she's not in direct contact with Manchin. — Xtrix

Well, we'll see what happens this week since their plan for a vote on both bills (in the House) apparently hasn't changed.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/01/business/reconciliation-package-taxes-salt/

"Democrats' $1.75 trillion economic and climate bill could end up delivering a tax cut for the richest 5% of Americans, a new analysis finds. Although it wasn't addressed in the framework, some observers expect the package will eventually include a repeal of the $10,000 cap on the federal deduction for state and local taxes, known as SALT. Some Democrats have said they won't vote for the legislation without action on the SALT cap, which has been a particular issue in California, New York, New Jersey and other high-tax states. The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget found in an analysis released Friday that repealing the SALT cap would more than offset the planned tax hikes on the rich.

"A two-year SALT cap repeal -- if included -- would reduce taxes on the top 5% of earners by over $70 billion" in fiscal 2023, the CRFB said. After factoring in the planned tax hikes on the rich, the package would translate to a $30 billion net direct tax cut for those in the top 5% when the SALT cap repeal is in effect, the analysis said.... More than 96% of the benefits from a SALT cap repeal would go to the highest-income 20% of households, according to a 2018 analysis from the Tax Policy Center. "

Ahhh the hope, the hope is overwhelming what are we going to do with all this democratic hope ahhhh help drowning in all the hope we need MoRe AcTiViSsmmmm

we need MoRe AcTiViSsmmmm — StreetlightX

Indeed. Organizing, collective action, etc. The alternative which you present -- doing nothing -- is a good option if you're a simpleton.

Keep simping for plutocrats. See you when Trump's in power again :blush:

Keep simping for plutocrats. — StreetlightX

:lol:

I only read a few pages back but I don't really follow you guys. Are you saying we should vote a third party or not bother voting at all and get more engaged in local stuff? You both seem not to like either party much so what would you recommend the average person do? I'm hoping to become more involved myself but not sure where to start. Maybe my time is best spent elsewhere because politics seems pretty messed up.

The democratic party functions as one-half of a two-part cycle whose overall effect is to ruin lives for everyone. The practical effect of what Xtrix calls 'doing something' is to perpetuate and entrench this cycle. What he calls 'activism' is, in fact, 'activism on behalf of the democratic party'. He'll pretend to acknowledge that it is corrupt to it's core, but then will defend it anyway. Which is exactly what the democrats do when they fly little BLM flags while funneling money to the rich and extending funding to cops. He's learnt from the best in that regard.

What to do? Break that cycle, and more importantly, break it from the left (the democrats are not a left party - they are a conservative party, just FYI). If that means not voting, so be it. People like Xtrix will try to hold you hostage and gaslight you: if you don't vote for the democrats, the republicans will come into power. But it's farce. If you vote for the democrats, the republicans will come into power anyway, because the function of the democratic party is defuse left energy (which the republican party can't do), and then, one that's done, actively pave the way for republican victories after that. That's their objective role in American political life. They're the rear-guard of republican political power.

Far more interesting that anything the Democrats have been doing is workers strikes all over the US. Capitalism is a wage relation, and it is over wages and workplace rights that anything will be won. Discuss your wages with your fellow workers. Join your union. Build networks of worker solidarity. Never hate on the poor or the uneducated, not matter how silly their antics can be. Power is always the enemy. Know that bosses are not your friends. Keep yourself informed. Refuse, at all costs, the fake distinction between liberal and conservative. Educate yourself, and, just casually, those around you when the opportunity arises. Also for the love of God never call yourself an activist. An activist is someone too non-committal and pussy to call themselves a socialist outright. Hitler's brownshirts were activists. 'Activism' is liberal code for: ineffective tinkerer of the status quo.

Maybe pick a couple of books - Thomas Frank's Listen, Liberal! is probably one of the better antidotes to Blue MAGA people like Xtrix. Or even something like Red State Revolt, which shows how worker movements can and do flourish in so-called red states. Or even Chris Hedges, who is a nice popular writer on these topics: https://www.amazon.com/America-Farewell-Tour-Chris-Hedges/dp/1501152688/

Maybe my time is best spent elsewhere because politics seems pretty messed up. — John McMannis

Hi John. A word of advice:

If you ever come across someone pretending to be non-partisan in regards to a two-party fight, and yet they claim one of the parties is a shill for the other, that person is a shill for the party they did not attack.

This is another one of the genius tactics of division used by the likes of Putin and his fascist Republican bitches.

That's your PSA for today. Be wary my friend.

The standard rejoinder, of course, is that the Democrats would happily legislate a transformative program were it not for opposition from two intransigent blue dog senators. While arguably true at the margins, the current dynamic is ultimately a structural one born of the very basic contradiction at the heart of the Democratic Party as an enterprise — and, if Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema weren’t the villains of the week, we can safely guarantee other Democratic senators would emerge from the woodwork to take their place.

There’s no way to govern coherently with a legislative program that represents a one-sided compromise between the preferences of liberal voters and those of major corporations. This model of so-called compromise was hardly invented by the likes of Manchin or Sinema. It’s also the one embraced by Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and virtually every other major figure or grandee in the Democratic Party’s upper ranks.

In a big way, the Left’s critique in 2016 and 2020 wasn’t just that a new, more ambitious, and more ideologically coherent program was urgently needed. It was also that the Democratic Party is structurally unable to deliver even many of the softly progressive measures its leaders periodically claim to want — and that, by extension, an administration headed by a figure like Joe Biden was almost certain to yield a very predictable result.

https://jacobinmag.com/2021/11/joe-biden-democratic-party-elections-presidency-the-left-predicted

An article after my own heart :heart: