There’s nothing to be “duped” about. I’m talking about a specific program which he fought against, for obvious reasons. There are other interests in play. Sinema, for example, has fought against negotiating drug prices, for obvious reasons. — Xtrix

And if it wasn't Sinema, and it wasn't Manchin, it would be someone else. And they too would have some nicely distinguishing feature that just so happens out of pure and absolute coincidence to block exactly what was on the table at exactly that point in time. It will be such a mystery how this keeps happening! Foiled again! Next time, he will be better, the battered woman says.

So your hope is a reality. If you refuse to see it, that’s your business. Now what? Stay home? Tear it all down? Give us your plan. — Xtrix

The first step is to stop perpetuating harm by buying into these spoon-fed narratives. This is, as liberals like to endlessly yarn about, harm minimization. It is an active harm to continue to act as if the democrats are not against any sense of progress by matter of design. It provides cover and provides a guarantee that they will continue to be a wholly corporate owned party that occasionally will rename a street in honor of BLM. The narrative you buy into and feed - which the democrats in turn have fed you themselves - is itself a harm. What you 'push for,' actively makes things worse, by enabling worse conditions. It is not, despite the fantasies dipped down to you from above, some kind of rear-guard, protective action.

You, and people like you, are enablers. Drug dealers of toxic, unrealizeable hope. Wittingly or not.

Yes, the only substantive issue on this topic is the pace of change - which is quick, granted, given what we used to have, but still not quick enough.

We gotta keep looking (and pushing) at the bright side, yes, cynicism only guarantees the worst possible situation as it just leads either to apathy or to pointless rage, in which one rails against everything while the world keeps humming along.

It will be such a mystery how this keeps happening! — StreetlightX

When a senator who receives the most money from fossil fuel, gets 500K in coal dividends, and is from West Virginia, vehemently opposes a sensible climate proposal— there’s no mystery to that at all.

and it wasn't Manchin, it would be someone else. — StreetlightX

For the CEPP program—who, exactly? Not Sinema— she’s bought by a different special interest. Perhaps Tester, being from Montana. But be specific— who do you have in mind? Markey? Bernie? King?

Or we can keep it to the easy realm of “they’re all the same”, and can therefore avoid the burdensome task of understanding something slightly more complicated.

Give us your plan.
— Xtrix

The first step is to stop perpetuating harm by buying into these hand-fed narratives. — StreetlightX

Which I already mentioned was the hope that’s been realized. The narrative for which you speak is not what I believe. So with that out of the way…

It is an active harm to continue to act as if the democrats are not against any sense of progress by matter of design. It provides cover and provides a guarantee that they will continue to be a wholly corporate owned party that occasionally will rename a street in honor of BLM. — StreetlightX

Right. Agreed…

The narrative you buy into and feed - which the democrats in turn have fed you themselves - is itself a harm. — StreetlightX

I buy into no such narrative. You won’t find it in anything I’ve written in the last two years on this forum. I think the person stuck on this narrative is yourself, frankly, as it’s the easiest strawman to attack. If you need to paint me as a DNC apologist, again that’s your own business.

What you 'push for,' actively makes things worse, by enabling worse conditions. — StreetlightX

Well let’s be specific. What I am especially pushing for is action on climate change. The CEPP program was a good one — though not by any means sufficient. You don’t have to take my word for it, simply read what others are saying about it — choose any credible source you like.

Okay, so that’s something worth getting into law. Without pushing for this now, who knows when the next chance will be for anything close to meaningful at the federal level. So we should all pressure our elected officials to pass this — many ways to do so.

It’s failed, and that’s disappointing. If it passed, would it have made things worse? There are other provisions in the bill, as well — $550 billion for various climate initiatives, none of which would be a reality if it weren’t for activism, and certainly not if Trump got a second term. Is this “worse”?

If pushing for these policies makes things worse, in the end, then that would be terrible indeed. So again I ask: assuming this is true, that I’ve bought into a “spoon fed narrative” and that what I push for makes things worse, what is your plan? What’s the alternative I’m missing in terms of action?

I’m still all ears.

We gotta keep looking (and pushing) at the bright side, yes, cynicism only guarantees the worst possible situation as it just leads either to apathy or to pointless rage, in which one rails against everything while the world keeps humming along. — Manuel

Which is also very easy. What’s hard is organizing with others, taking collective action, protesting in the streets (which I hate), using the courts, registering voters, educating people, raising money, corresponding with state and local leaders, getting involved in local government, sitting on boards, crafting proposals, creating petitions and referenda, etc.

Much easier to be cynical. This way you can appear to be above all the silly “activism”— with the added benefit of having to do nothing except sit on your ass, read books, and write some comments on the Internet. Political hobbyism 101.

Feels great; accomplishes nothing. For those living in the real world, and want to do something — however small — the best thing to do is ignore such people. They don’t have a single solution in their heads anyway.

What’s the alternative I’m missing in terms of action? — Xtrix

What kind of question is this in response to what I wrote? "Yes, fine, I am enabling and making things worse by actively perpetuating harm, but what else would you have me do???". It's not a serious question. Your sincerity is fake. As for not buying into the narrative, of course you do. You - and you're not alone of course, you're a statistic - peddle the idea that the chief impediment to progress is not the democratic party as such, but just a couple of rogue elements here and there which can be brought to heel with some activism here and there. Never mind that Biden broke practically every promise he made going into the election bar pulling out of Afghanistan - they still got this. Again, this stuff is not 'failure', 'unfortunate' fifty-offs. It is deliberate.

People speak of Biden being "forced to water-down" this or that bill. Please. He does it with joy.

It’s failed, and that’s disappointing. — Xtrix

It's disappointing to those who had any expectation it would be allowed to pass by the democrats at all. I keep telling you, and you keep displacing the issue. This very vocabulary is the problem. The democratic party is a hostile agent, and until you treat them as such, you are an apologist. The choice is not - despite your disingenuous and self-serving characterization - of 'doing something' vs. 'not doing something'. It is between enabling harm and disabling it.

And what exactly was the rhetorical strategy here? "I know the democratic party has been completely bought out and fails at every progressive measure it tries to enact, but as countervailing evidence, consider this bill that failed on account of the democratic party having been bought out and never getting anything done". Well gee, guess you got me dead to rights.

70 years of rightward drift of which democrats have been exemplary lubricants and people have the gall to think it is 'adolescent' to call out this utter bullshit for what it is and to ask that people stop lapping up the orchestrated cycles. If I'm 'cynical' then people like you are Sisyphean nihilists. The democratic party is the Auschwitz of American political hope. It is where hope is sent to be liquidated under the guise of making a better world. My problem isn't that 'I don't have hope'. The problem is that I think more highly of hope than the hopeless vulgarization of tying its significance to an apparatus full of corporate hacks. Anyone who tells anyone else that unless they believe in the democratic party, they 'lack hope', can walk into the ocean and never come back out of sheer embarrassment.

Don't you dare lecture me about hope and cynicism when your version of watered-down, mud-brown hope is putting trust in a proven apparatus of decade-long failure that is nothing more than a group of plutocratic arse-kissers and yes-men. Go gaslight someone else with democratic piss passed off as poor-quality chardonnay that you get mad that people don't want to drink.

@Xtrix and @StreetlightX are both in it for the insults, so now they insult one another.

Typical leftists.

No leftist supports the Democratic party.

No leftist supports the Democratic party. — StreetlightX

Ok. You and Xtrix are in the same side, though. Whatever you want to call it.

The EU is also run by neoliberal principles, so maybe there's no leftism in the world?

What’s the alternative I’m missing in terms of action?
— Xtrix

What kind of question is this in response to what I wrote? — StreetlightX

You mean your non-answer to a question I’ve repeated twice.

peddle the idea that the chief impediment to progress is not the democratic party as such, but just a couple of rogue elements here and there which can be brought to heel with some activism here and there. — StreetlightX

No.

It is deliberate. — StreetlightX

People speak of Biden being "forced to water-down" this or that bill. Please. He does it with joy. — StreetlightX

You figured this all out already. Well done.

It's disappointing to those who had any expectation it would be allowed to pass by the democrats at all. — StreetlightX

So it was inevitable that the CEPP program wouldn’t pass — so why bother? Stupid activists.

I keep telling you, and you keep displacing the issue. This very vocabulary is the problem. — StreetlightX

No, you keep repeating lazy, easy, obvious claims about the corruption of the Democratic Party, as if you’ve stumbled upon a grand insight.

The democratic party is a hostile agent, — StreetlightX

Riveting.

As if I haven’t been saying this for years.

70 years of rightward drift of which democrats have been exemplary lubricants and people have the gall to think it is 'adolescent' to call out this utter bullshit for what it is and to ask that people stop lapping up the orchestrated cycles. — StreetlightX

Yeah you’re really doing God’s work. What I was asking for, sincerely, is a plan of action given the situation. We know democrats are bought by corporate interests, and not on our side — indeed. So given this situation, what is to be done?

Apparently to keep railing about how democrats are a hostile entity, and vocabulary. Yes, that is adolescent (pardon the accuracy).

Anyone who tells anyone else that unless they believe in the democratic party, they 'lack hope', can walk into the ocean and never come back out of sheer embarrassment. — StreetlightX

Agreed.

I’ve never once suggested that.

Don't you dare lecture me about hope and cynicism — StreetlightX

No lectures. A fairly simple question which you evidently can’t answer. All the smoke that’s been blown doesn’t change it.

Lol, you've spent this entire thread apologizing and cheerleading for the democrats and now wonder - a fake wonder, performative and deliberately forgetful - why your equally fake 'obvious' acknowledgements about the corruption of the democratic party seem to be such a big deal. Push comes to shove you will flag wave for your precious party while fake acknowledging its shortcomings as the work of - what was it you said? - a couple of "moderates". Fraud.

Still can't answer a simple question, as I suspected. Why? Because it's much easier to posture about truisms while sitting on your ass doing nothing.

The CEPP program was a sensible one. There was a lot of activism involved, especially by younger people (the Sunrise Movement, etc), to even get these proposals considered. That, according to you, was a misguided waste of time, because no one except an apologist/cheerleader for the democratic party would believe there was any chance of it passing. What a fantastic message.

For those following along, notice how convenient this is. Take action and you're delusional, because nothing will change -- what needs to change is our beliefs.

I say: let's assume the beliefs are changed, now what?

Not a word. More repeating of the same lines. "Fraud." "Apologist." "Cheerleader." Yeah, yeah. Typical diversion from those who haven't the slightest clue as to how to proceed, have no solutions or plans (because that would entail real work), and would rather posture.

You're the biggest fraud here without realizing it. Go read more Zizek.

Oh you're still going on about the failed policy that did not pass as some kind of defense of the democrats? What was it last time? "We'll pull them to the left?". Now its: "this failed policy was great on paper". In a few months it will be: "aw, if only the democrats were not wiped out at the mid-terms" After that: "oh boy, how horrible is this Trump fellow, we better vote blue no matter who". You're an excuse machine - with hand-fed Democratic Party Excuses™ - with only failure to cite.

If only the Sunrise Movement was as hopeless and lazy as you. Stupid kids.

Yeah I didn't think you had anything substantial to say either.

Talk about "substance" from a guy who couldn't answer a simple question of action. What a shocker.

Your posturing is fantastic, though. We're all very impressed.

Your posturing is fantastic, though. We're all very impressed. — Xtrix

Almost as good as democratic posturing. I couldn't possibly hope to match.

"Nothing will change, the Democratic party is corrupt."

"True. So what should be done?"

"What kind of question is that?"

lol

I'm sorry about your comprehension skills. Must be an American education thing.

What’s the alternative I’m missing in terms of action?
— Xtrix

What kind of question is this in response to what I wrote? — StreetlightX

:lol:

The first step is to stop perpetuating harm by buying into these spoon-fed narratives — StreetlightX

Can't wait till this thread gets back on track with liberals being mad at Manchin and Sinema.

Please tell us more about how evil and corrupt democrats are. Your insights are so deep.

Let's all go to sleep -- it's hopeless. Try any action, and you're a democrat apologist.

Maybe logic works differently in Australia.

Can't wait till this thread gets back on track with liberals being mad at Manchin and Sinema. — StreetlightX

The question I have is: given how critical this moment is, what can be done to help it become reality? — Xtrix

You were saying something about comprehension...

Yes, I realize that your temporal scale runs to about the length of 'a moment' and no more. Meanwhile, one looks forward to another 70 years of failure I suppose. Like the ones you repeatedly cite so proudly.

If only I could see the big picture, like you. Then I could sit on my ass doing nothing as well.

Then I could sit on my ass doing nothing as well. — Xtrix

It would be better, for you and others like you, in particular, to do nothing. Then the democratic party would not be provided with the cover of legitimacy that you so lovingly supply as they deliberately wreck things. The conditions for perpetual decay would be eased. Your doing nothing would be a net positive in the world.

I realize you literally cannot comprehend this point, but it's worth a try.

It would be better, for you and others like you, in particular, to do nothing. — StreetlightX

Because I'm a democratic operative/apologist who's perpetuating harm and giving cover to the party. As opposed to you and the actions you take, which are definitely there but not worth discussing with a democrat operative like me.

:yawn:

Because I'm a democratic operative/apologist who's perpetuating harm and giving cover to the party. — Xtrix

Eyyy. Took a while but we got there. Proud of you :blush:

Eyyy. Took a while but we got there. Proud of you :blush: — StreetlightX

:kiss:

Always insightful, buddy. If only I could sit as comfortably doing nothing as you...must be nice. Keep changing the world, one post at a time.

Much easier to be cynical. This way you can appear to be above all the silly “activism”— with the added benefit of having to do nothing except sit on your ass, read books, and write some comments on the Internet. Political hobbyism 101.

Feels great; accomplishes nothing. For those living in the real world, and want to do something — however small — the best thing to do is ignore such people. They don’t have a single solution in their heads anyway. — Xtrix