• Count Timothy von Icarus
    664


    I only have an anti-progressive bent in that they frustrate me because I tend to agree with their policies, but then their political execution in enacting them is usually terrible. They also tend to greatly over estimate their own support, leading to rhetoric and maximalist positions (a good example is the push to abolish talented and gifted programs from public schools, which is misguided and horrendously unpopular) that cost the elections.

    I find it likely that Democrats lose the House and Senate because:

    1. That historically happens during mid terms.
    2. It is even more likely to happen if the country is doing poorly, which it most certainly will be due to heavy drags on the economy.
    3. Biden's approval rating is absolute bottom barrel. It is worse than Trump's during the same week of his Presidency, and this was the week of Charlottesville and the news of Manafort's Russian corruption ties, which tanked his polls. It's worse than it looks because Biden's approval rating is -17 in Arizona, and similarly bad in every swing state, with his remaining support concentrated in electorally meaningless places.

    And I get it, the country is in crisis and we have a dotard mumbling off in his speeches unable to wrangle his party in his second meaningful vote (and the first, the stimulus, was a softball). Not great for turnout.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    They also tend to greatly over estimate their own support,Count Timothy von Icarus

    I don’t see this. The policies they’re proposing are very popular indeed.

    It is even more likely to happen if the country is doing poorly, which it most certainly will be due to heavy drags on the economy.Count Timothy von Icarus

    By next year, I think the economy will be doing fine. I don’t see much evidence that it’ll be in the tank.

    Biden's approval rating is absolute bottom barrel. It is worse than Trump's during the same week of his Presidency, and this was the week of Charlottesville and the news of Manafort's Russian corruption ties, which tanked his polls.Count Timothy von Icarus

    That’s just not true. Biden is doing better than this time in the Trump presidency, by a decent amount. Although it’s still a downturn for him. If COVID dissipates and the economy starts looking better, and the bills get passed, I think he’s in decent shape. Afghanistan was a disaster, but it’ll be forgotten by next year.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    But it is true, he fairs worse with independentsCount Timothy von Icarus

    No. You didn’t say approval rating among independents, you said approval rating.

    If he’s behind with independents, that’s not a huge surprise.
  • ssu
    6.5k
    That’s just not true. Biden is doing better than this time in the Trump presidency, by a decent amount.Xtrix
    Just for the record, the statistics here:

    19541.jpeg

    So @Xtrix is right, even if Joke Biden has taken a tumble. What for me is surprising that sometime nearly 50% approved Trump. But then it went down again...
  • Gary M Washburn
    240
    People are always a bit disgusted while the sausage is made. Different story, I expect, when it comes to eating it.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    This is exactly the type of thing that I resent my government doing; my government too often sticks my American nose in where it doesn't belong. Frankly, I feel the same about Iraq and Afghanistan, save for bringing some pain (killing a few people...mostly the Taliban which sheltered Bin Laden, and of course breaking some shit) to the Afghanis as strictly a punishment, a chastisement in the wake of 9/11 (maybe for two or three months or so, but then get the heck out of there). Generally, I do not pay those in my government for being busybodies all over the world, though, and can't understand where they get off so doing.Michael Zwingli

    It brings to mind Smedley Darlington Butler "War is a Racket" speech. Nothing has changed.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/climate/biden-clean-energy-manchin.html

    Death knell.

    Might as well say goodbye to each other, because some asshole from West Virginia cares more about money than the future of his grandkids — and the human species.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Might as well say goodbye to each other, because some asshole from West Virginia cares more about money than the future of his grandkids — and the human species.Xtrix

    That's the difference between the left and the right. The right presents their elected representatives with substantial, credible threats of physical violence to them or their families if they don't vote the way Trump would have them vote. Thus, even if they disagree with Trump, or have an ounce of independence or honor, they stick with him. That's why so many are on board. They are afraid. Very afraid. It's not because they actually agree with him. Some do, but not all. And the right knows who is waivering, so they muscle them.

    The left won't do that to Manchin or Sinema.
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    Death knell.Xtrix

    Agree. This is really bad. It’s about as bad as when the Australian conservatives disemboweled our working effective carbon tax for political reasons, but it’s on a much larger scale because it’s the US.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    The left won't do that to Manchin or Sinema.James Riley

    Is it really going to take violence to get people to listen? Maybe the right has the correct tactic, like you mentioned. Their representatives are so terrified that they'll go along with any ol' batshit crazy thing -- "The election was stolen," "Trump is a great leader," etc. Whatever the mob wants (which the establishment themselves created, remember, through years of neoliberal policies and through their media), they'll more or less get at this point.

    But these proposals of the democrats are going to directly impact corporate power, and so they're pushing back much harder. Whereas with Republicans, it's just crazy bullshit -- you never see them proposing raising taxes or more regulations or anything like that.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    hereas with Republicans, it's just crazy bullshit -- you never see them proposing raising taxes or more regulations or anything like that.Xtrix

    Yeah, they don't have to pay for their spending. They run the deficit up, ruin America, turn it over to the Ds to clean up, rinse, repeat. D's are like the dutiful housewife. So what incentive do the Rs have to act responsibly? They go low and we tie our hands behind our backs.

    Is it really going to take violence to get people to listen?Xtrix

    Works for them. Word on the street was indeed these men and women were receiving threats of physical violence against themselves or their families. And they don't run to John Law because the threat included a prohibition against that, too.

    The left doesn't have it in them to do that. Besides, most of them forfeited their trump card that made any threat a substantial or credible one. They are left with sticking flowers in the muzzles of the right and praying.

    I think the left does have a breaking point, but it will be too late. Hitler's victims had a breaking point, too. But they waited too long and got on the trains anyway. After all, no one could be *that* evil, could they? It's just puffing, right?
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    So just an update. The old Republican line whenever anything remotely beneficial to the common good gets proposed: "How are we going to pay for it?"

    That's what the Republican senators Sinema and Manchin are essentially saying, as well. So all kinds of proposals have been put forward: raise the corporate tax rate -- that's out. So the Dems propose a wealth tax -- that's out. So they narrow it down and propose a billionaire's tax -- and now that's likely out. They want to give the IRS more power to collect taxes due from tax cheats like the very wealthy and corporations -- that's out.

    So in other words: we don't have the money to pay for this, because we reject any proposals to pay for it -- and because we can't pay for it (thanks to us), we can't accept it, and it has to either be pared down or cut outright.

    Meanwhile, we spend $7 trillion dollars on defense contracts over the same period. But $3.5 trillion is unacceptable. Imagine that for a moment.

    So it's not a matter of money in the first place -- or the debt, or the deficit. It's about not wanting these POPULAR programs to pass in the first place. Why? Because these senators are BOUGHT by special interests like the fossil fuel industry (Manchin) and Big Pharma (Sinema). So obvious a 2nd grader could understand it.

    Maybe the human species deserves to die off?

    Perhaps. But if we go, I'd like to go fighting at least.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    Looks like Prime Minister Manchin will get just about everything he wants. What a shocker.

    As a summary:

    * $6 trillion originally proposed.
    * Trimmed to $3.5 trillion (over ten years). That's $350 billion a year. We spent $700 billion on defense contracts a year.
    * Now down to $1.75 trillion, and being watered down even further.

    Some of the ways to pay for it (which aren't even necessary, but which the Prime Minister cares about):

    * Raising taxes on the corporate sector and the wealthy. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin and Sinema.
    * A billionaire's tax. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin and Sinema.
    * More money to the IRS to go after tax cheats. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin and Sinema.

    The world is currently on fire, and will get worse every for for decades. This is literally our last best chance to accomplish anything about it. So, regarding climate:

    * A clean energy program, advocated for by climate scientists the world over. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin.
    * A carbon tax, advocated by thousands of economists on the left and right. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin.
    * Legislation for plugging methane leaks. -- That's out. Blocked by Manchin.
    * Currently $550 billion proposed for tax incentives. -- That'll be out soon, just give it time. It'll be blocked by Manchin (or greatly reduced).

    Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry.

    So there you have it, folks.

    Maybe insurrection isn't that bad after all. I think I get it now.
  • Shawn
    12.1k
    I recall that some of the infrastructure spending was lumped into existing programs. Anyone care to comment about this?
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    Maybe insurrection isn't that bad after all. I think I get it now.Xtrix

    Yeah, but the left doesn't have what it takes, and they forfeited their right to compel compliance with their demands. Now they must pray that the rule of law actually rules. :rofl: But if the honorable men in law enforcement lack courage or ability, then the left has relegated itself to begging for scraps. There you go, Michelle, that's what happens when you "go high."

    Or, we could ask ourselves: "What would the so-called "patriots" do if a Republican politician failed to tow the line?" and then we could do that. But then, all of a sudden, you'd see law enforcement go into action. Because we are a soft target.

    I'm looking at you, FBI and Merrick Garland. Rule of law?????? Show me.

    Joe Manchin is laughing all the way to the bank. Him and Mitch McConnel know a sucker when they see one.
  • Shawn
    12.1k
    In case anyone is confused about what got reduced or eliminated from the original BBBA act, Investopedia has a good list of what's in and what's out.

    https://www.investopedia.com/here-s-what-s-in-the-usd1-trillion-infrastructure-bill-passed-by-the-senate-5196817
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry.

    So there you have it, folks.
    Xtrix

    It is unbelievably depressing. Like a fifth columnist brought into the Democratic Party to wreck it from the inside. So you have the GOP, utterly corrupted, evil, and a threat to the democratic order, and the Democratic Party, who can't even govern themselves, let alone the country. It's deeply broken. :cry:
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Oh wait people here think Manchin and Sinema are the 'bad guys' and are not doing exactly as the Democratic party apparatus is telling them to do? Lol. Guess there are idiots everywhere.

    "Wreck the democratic party from the inside". My God, the fact that anyone has bought into the idea that things are not going exactly to plan is even more depressing than the manufactured drama itself. You are the very guarantors of this kind of thing perpetuating over and over again, till infinity.

    "Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry" - yeah Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry, uh huh, the rest of them are green eco-warriors held back by the forces of Manchin darkness. Frankly Manchin is the only honest one among them all - along with Sinema of course.
  • Manuel
    3k


    Manchin is real piece of shit.

    Who gives a fuck if your laughing all the way to the bank if your daughter and/or grandkids are totally fucked. Because, baring a massive change, they will be.
  • Mr Bee
    471
    Just for context: Manchin originally wanted $4 trillion for infrastructure. If we were generous and put the price tag of both bills together (including the $0.7 trillion of non-new spending in the bipartisan bill), the current package barely adds up to $3 trillion. The fact that the media hasn't brought this up with him over the past several weeks is infuriating to say the least.
  • James Riley
    2.9k
    The fact that the media hasn't brought this up with him over the past several weeks is infuriating to say the least.Mr Bee

    Indeed. I get livid. I follow a FB group called "Iron Snowflake." Mostly tweets and memes and whatnot from the progressive perspective. Here and there I see some one-liners and other succinct points that are just cutting. I wonder why these points are not addressed by the MSM? Are they not true? I wonder if I'm just in some echo chamber like a conservative Q idiot listening to Joe Rogan and whatnot. Maybe I'm wrapped up in confirmation bias, etc. So I do a little research. I find things like you point out about Manchin. I want to grab the evening news fucks by the neck and shake their ass and ask "What about this, you stupid POS!" It makes me think they are so desirous of a fight that they keep the division at 50-50 because it's good for their ratings. If they told the truth, the division would be about 90-10.

    End rant.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    "Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry" - yeah Manchin is owned by the fossil fuel industry, uh huh, the rest of them are green eco-warriors held back by the forces of Manchin darkness.StreetlightX

    I haven't said that nor implied it. But they are willing to vote for the bill, and have stated so publicly -- including the CEPP. It's worth mentioning that Manchin makes 500K from coal dividends annually and is #1 in the senate for fossil fuel contributions received -- quite an achievement. Doesn't make him the only "bad guy," and doesn't absolve the rest of Democratic party -- and certainly doesn't mean the rest are "eco-warriors." But certainly a very different situation from Sanders or Markey or Coons or Duckworth, etc.

    If we want to be serious about this, it's worth following closely, to see where we need to work. If we want to pretend there aren't differences between Republicans and Democrats, or pretend that all Democrats are the same, etc., then we might as well give up and stay home -- it's hopeless. I have no interest in doing so, but you're welcome to it.

    It is unbelievably depressing.Wayfarer

    But not surprising.

    Who gives a fuck if your laughing all the way to the bank if your daughter and/or grandkids are totally fucked. Because, baring a massive change, they will be.Manuel

    Yeah. It's not even the greed or corruption -- that's obvious. But do we have to bring the planet and future generations down as well? Can't you find someone else's bribes to take?

    I wonder if I'm just in some echo chamber like a conservative Q idiot listening to Joe Rogan and whatnot.James Riley

    Always worth asking. It comes down, in the end, to who we choose to listen to, critical thinking, and judgment. That comes from years of practice, and can't even be taught formally (in my view).
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    But they are willing to vote for the bill, and have stated so publiclyXtrix

    Of course they are. What matters is the result. They will vote for the bill and have stated so publically because the likes of Manchin will not. And then people like you, fed your little dose of psuedo-hope, like the morphine addicted rat pulling at the lever, continue beliving that the democratic party is being compromised by exogenous forces, rather than coordinating to get the best possible results for their corporate sponsors at every point.

    At what point, after decade long "failures", does it begin to seem to someone that maybe none of these are failures at all? What state of wretchedness does one have to be in to stop perpetuating their own being held hostage? It's like an abusive relationship: "he'll do better next time I swear!". Girl, he won't.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    They will vote for the bill and have stated so publically because the likes of Manchin will not.StreetlightX

    Who did you have in mind, exactly? Tester? Who else? Who else is hiding behind Manchin? Possibly a handful. But the majority of Democrats supported the CEPP, and for good reason. Do you believe it a coincidence that the person fighting the hardest against it happens to be the biggest recipient of fossil fuel contributions? Or does this question not matter when you're interested only in making sweeping (and easy) generalizations?

    And then people like you, fed your little dose of psuedo-hope, like the morphine addicted rat pulling at the lever, continue beliving that the democratic party is being compromised by exogenous forces, rather than coordinating to get the best possible results for their corporate sponsors at every point.StreetlightX

    Is this what I believe?

    You're right in one respect: I am hopeful. But I don't see an alternative. If you're correct, and it's all hopeless -- fine. We'll find out one way or another. In the mean time, I'll choose to keep doing as much as I can.

    It's like an abusive relationship: "he'll do better next time I swear!". Girl, he won't.StreetlightX

    Man, wake the fuck up. You're not the only cynic here.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Do you believe it a coincidence that the person fighting the hardest against it happens to be the biggest recipient of fossil fuel contributions?Xtrix

    No - in fact, it makes Manchin all the better for dupes to train their hate at. And him all the more happy to receive the utterly ineffectual hate, for which he will probably be paid even more. And the democrats the happiest of all, getting to play a oh-woe-is-me card as if they are victims rather than accomplices. Everyone - but people not paid by corporate money - wins.

    In the mean time, I'll choose to keep doing as much as I can...Xtrix

    ....to perpetuate the hand-fed narrative designed to keep you invested in a malicious organization?

    As for this psychological twaddle about hope and cynicism: I have hope because I believe not utterly everyone will buy into democrat bullshit. I am utterly brimming with hope that people are not so utterly, incredibly, indelibly moronic that they actually think the problem is people like Manchin and Sinema rather than the entire democratic party apparatus, rotten from Joe Biden to AOC. The only cynics are those who look at the existing state of affairs and think: there can be no other possible way. People who believe in the fabricated drama of democratic party facades so as to better perpetuate its complete capture by corporate interests do not have a monopoly on hope. In fact they toxify it.
  • Manuel
    3k
    Yeah. It's not even the greed or corruption -- that's obvious. But do we have to bring the planet and future generations down as well? Can't you find someone else's bribes to take?Xtrix

    Yeah. That's the problem. There's plenty of ways to laugh all the way to the bank - sometimes people fall for dupes, and well, somebody ends up winning.

    Not here. This money will be meaningless in too short a time. Shame Democrats couldn't get 4 seats or more in the senate, would've made a difference in the bill.

    Now we face the prospects of the damn Republicans tearing the WORLD apart for money. It's bloody difficult when only one party does a little for the people, and the other one nothing but destroy.

    Interesting times...
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    No - in fact, it makes Manchin all the better for dupes to train their hate at.StreetlightX

    There’s nothing to be “duped” about. I’m talking about a specific program which he fought against, for obvious reasons. There are other interests in play. Sinema, for example, has fought against negotiating drug prices, for obvious reasons.

    The climate program was sensible, and it was destroyed by fossil fuel interests. Yes, most democrats are bought by corporate interests — no kidding. Not all corporate interests are fossil fuel interests.

    I have hope because I believe not utterly everyone will buy into democrat bullshit.StreetlightX

    Wonderful. No one on the thread, least of all me, has argued the democrats (or Biden) are our saviors, haven’t been bought off by corporate interests, aren’t motivated by money and power, or any of the other utterly obvious points you seem so reluctant to believe anyone but you has discovered.

    So your hope is a reality. If you refuse to see it, that’s your business. Now what? Stay home? Tear it all down? Give us your plan. I’m genuinely curious. But it has to be more than absolutely trivial points about capitalism and political duopoly.

    Until that’s given, I’ll continue pushing for better policies in the world we have, which unfortunately is a two-party system largely owned by corporate interests in a state capitalist system, with the ultimate goal of destroying capitalism AND the state (which is way, way off and will almost certainly not happen in our lifetimes).

    If you have better suggestions in the meantime, I’m all ears.
  • Mikie
    4.2k
    Now we face the prospects of the damn Republicans tearing the WORLD apart for money. It's bloody difficult when only one party does a little for the people, and the other one nothing but destroy.Manuel

    The Republican Party has now gone completely off the rails. The moderate Republicans (the Democratic Party) are all that’s left. But there are also plenty of signs of progress compared to even 15 years ago— adolescent cynicism aside.
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