Perhaps they can care and also get paid. They care enough to organise their lives in such a way that they can continue caring, which means paying the bills amongst other things. There is something special about doing good without reward but for most of us, most of the time, we can sacrifice ourselves only to the extent that we have spare resources to devote to others.

In crediting people with Liberality their resources must be taken into account; for the liberality of a gift does not depend on its amount, but on the disposition of the giver, and a liberal disposition gives according to its substance. It is therefore possible that the smaller giver may be the more liberal, if he give from smaller means. — Aristotle, Eth Nic, IV, 19

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0054%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3Dpos%3D139%3Asection%3D19

My question is: How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? — Wheatley

Valuable to who?
I'd prefer a therapist that doesn't personally care too much. Someone who is detached and logical and to the point. I can get sympathy from my friends and family.

Why do people get into psychology in the first place? Because of money? I have a hard time imagining that. Where I'm from, psychology doesn't exactly pay much. At least unless you're a renown private psychotherapist. Still it's one of the most popular academic fields here, with up to 2000 applicants to university every semester. In fact, due to mental health being underfunded in the health care program, there are more psychologists than there are psychologist jobs. I imagine this is not too different in other countries.

I see two obvious reasons why people get into psychology. One, because they have a deep interest in psychology. Two, because they believe they can help people through psychology.

Everyone has to make a living. Isn't making a living while at the same time helping others amongst the most sensible ways we can live our lives?

But here's the catch, when a therapist helps a patient they are doing so because it is their job to help them, and not because they are care. And at the end of the day, nobody has actually cared about the mentally sick however much help they get. My question is: How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? — Wheatley

It shouldn't matter whether the therapist cares or not, so long as that doesn't disrupt their job when helping the patient, and they are competent enough (as is the case in your example):

An able physician is more useful to a patient than the most devoted friend, and progress in medical knowledge does more for the health of the community than ill-informed philanthropy. Nevertheless, an element of benevolence is essential even here if any but the rich are to profit by scientific discoveries. — Russell

I think any help is valuable, regardless of the reason for helping or from which person it comes, so long as it is effective at diminishing suffering and/or increasing happiness.

genuine human kindness — Wheatley

when a therapist helps a patient they are doing so because it is their job to help them, and not because they are care — Wheatley

Not necessarily. Some people entered the profession because they were impacted by untreated mental illness in their own personal lives, not to say themselves but perhaps a family member or friend who ended up harming themselves or others.

And at the end of the day, nobody has actually cared about the mentally sick however much help they get — Wheatley

I don't think you would know that for certain. Sure after a while and depending on the severity it can start to see like there's no one "there" so to speak and your efforts are being wasted when they could be helping others only mildly afflicted.

How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

Arguably, somewhat less. You can read a book to an audience with the same (albeit feigned) excitement and dramatic tone as someone who wrote the book for the audience without much effort. There's no reason you can't follow your training as a therapist and intuition just because you'd be rather be doing something else, granted it does make it liable that in your training and education you either slacked or rushed or otherwise didn't get as much as you could have from it otherwise. So it's circumstantial and more a trifecta of competency, duty, and passion than any one. You can be the most caring guy in the world but if someone who really doesn't want to be there right now happens to be able to discern more subtleties and most important offer more effective solutions than the caring guy well, no harm no foul it would seem.

Genuine kindness? No, but it can reward it (eg. so and so receives many positive reviews therefore it makes sense to consider so and so for more hours or perhaps even a promotion, customers like so and so and as a result is good for business). What it can introduce however is patience and professionalism in an individual. You don't go to a place of business for "kindness" you go for a latte or maybe a designer phone case. You don't need them to be kind you need them to facilitate your purchase of a product or service without being intolerably rude. This is what salaries are for.

Some jobs are different of course. Social work, elderly care, nursing, teaching, therapy. It's not a perfect world. Fortunately abuse is often reported and reviews can be left by clients that can sometimes offer enough information to go by.

My interactions with the medical community (not mental health, but doctors, nurses, staff) have been positive to the point where I wonder how they got that way. But I'm glad they did. I think they should be paid for it, too. That way they can keep doing it. Apparently it makes them happy and they are doing good. Win-win for everyone. Many veterinarians are that way too. Day care workers. I suppose shrinks might care too. But you have to breathe, drink, eat and whatnot before all the caring in the world will amount to anything other than an empty sentiment.

You don’t need a therapist who cares in sense of being emotionally involved. That’s counterproductive. The therapist needs only to care about achieving a positive outcome for the client. What is more critical is that the therapist accepts the client. In order to be accepting the therapist must not just have the desire to be accepting , they must must be able to relate non-judgementally to the client’s world as they see it.

My question is: How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

Does your mechanic need to care for you to do a good job on your car? I'd settle for non-judgemental professional skill over emotive caring most days.

Human kindness is overrated. People who 'mean well' often cause significant damage to others in need precisely because they care without having any understanding of how people recover or develop the skills of self-efficacy.

By the way, people facing mental health challenges often achieve recovery and develop solutions outside of formal therapy simply by getting psychosocial support - meaningful activities, a community hub and the support of peers. A therapeutic environment and a feeling of purpose can do wonders.

How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

Why should they care in first place?? Is it immoral if they don't?? For me not at all. As long as they do their job properly and try to be good at it, it's fine with me. Can we expect from all people to care for all the others in the world?

An surgeon doctor should care about all of his patients? Does it mean that he can't be great at his job and save others life(help them) cause he is just excellent in surgeries?

Caring includes feeling bad also when someone who you care for, is in any kind of pain. Imagine all therapists feeling shit about each patient they have, we condemn them to have miserable lives then!

For me I don't care at all if any kind of therapist cares or not about his patients. But I extremely care about him being good at his job. And taking over his personal responsibility that his job demands over his patients! That responsibility requires to perform the best he can for them! That is the biggest and most important help that the patient needs.

If for example he also thinks that pretending that he cares about him, it would be good for the patient and more beneficial, then pretend also! Fine with me.

My question is: How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

It depends on the quality of the therapist. The quality of the therapist depends on personality and training. There are several methods that can be used to resolve our mental health issues and different people will like different methods.

Because a therapist does not have a personal relationship with the client, this can be very helpful! I think most people have grandparents and chances are good they are wise, caring people but nobody listens to them.

Those of us who are grandparents have learned the hard way to keep our mouths shut or say things very, very carefully. The day of respecting our elders and family fidelity has passed. We are now all about our emotions and we know if you are unhappy it is our family's fault. Those toxic relationships you know.

The bottom line is people see therapists because family relationships are not working. Or occasionally medication is needed and the family is not qualified to deal with that.

Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

No, it cannot. There is professional help, and then there's the spiritual and emotional support.

:100:

I wonder how they got that way. But I'm glad they did. I think they should be paid for it, too. That way they can keep doing it. Apparently it makes them happy and they are doing good. Win-win for everyone. — James Riley

:up:

Does your mechanic need to care for you to do a good job on your car? I'd settle for non-judgemental professional skill over emotive caring most days.

Human kindness is overrated. — Tom Storm

:up:

:flower:

Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

The short answer: Yes.
The long answer: Yeeeeesssss!

We can do away with the empty ceremonies & tedious formalities (good for good's sake :rofl: ) and get down to business - give & take, quid pro quo.

My question is: How valuable is the help of those who do not actually care? Can a system that is based on salary replace genuine human kindness? — Wheatley

That's not help then, it's a business transaction and should be understood as such.

Does your mechanic need to care for you to do a good job on your car? I'd settle for non-judgemental professional skill over emotive caring most days. — Tom Storm

Do you think this example with the car mechanic is analogous to a person visiting a mental health care professional?

If yes, why?

For the most part, yes, but the comparison was a bit glib so not to be take too literally. I was essentially making the point that good professional care does not require a deep emotional connection. In fact, an emotional connection or a friendship is often a hinderance - the person who has an emotional investment in the client is likely to screw up. You don't hear or see very well if you are emotionally involved.

The care offered by a professional is like being friendly without being a friend. It's an important distinction that probably needs to go with a lengthy dissertation on professional boundaries and the like. A professional offers care in the sense of a duty to provide a quality service that meets the person's needs, just as a reputable mechanic provides a quality service to a car that ensures it is safe to driver regardless of who the drive is. All very general I know.

The care offered by a professional is like being friendly without being a friend. It's an important distinction that probably needs to go with a lengthy dissertation on professional boundaries and the like. — Tom Storm

Which is very tricky when it comes to mental health, esp. on the part of the patient. For the therapy to proceed as intended by the therapist, the patient must internalize the mental health theory that their therapist is working with. I think that's expecting a lot from the patient, esp. considering that there is a multitude of theories (so why pick this one?).

I should say am not an expert on therapy and therapeutic modalities. My background, amongst other things, is in suicide intervention, post incident trauma support and alcohol and drug counselling and psycho-social services management. I prefer to leave it there.

Therapy is so broad and complex a subject that almost anything you say about it, the opposite is also true. There are dubious therapies and bad therapists. The best practice, I believe, informs the person you are working with what the principles of the process and beliefs behind it are. Some people will want a reading list. Some people will disagree and move on. That's ok too. Therapy is unlikely to work if it is not voluntary and if it isn't largely directed by the client who sets the goals.

I also think that often people require less therapy and fewer professionals in their lives and more meaningful connections and activities.

My background, amongst other things, is in suicide intervention, post incident trauma support and alcohol and drug counselling and psycho-social services management. — Tom Storm

Jeez man, that must be tough.

I wonder what goes through your head, after dealing with people who want to kill themselves, when you bump into threads discussing pessimism. That would be so weird to me.

Thanks. I guess everyone brings whatever experience they have to the table. I find the work rewarding but it has its days.

The care offered by a professional is like being friendly without being a friend. It's an important distinction that probably needs to go with a lengthy dissertation on professional boundaries and the like. A professional offers care in the sense of a duty to provide a quality service that meets the person's needs, just as a reputable mechanic provides a quality service to a car that ensures it is safe to driver regardless of who the drive is. All very general I know. — Tom Storm

I don't disagree with this, although my engineering work experience was a bit different. I worked for one company my whole career. It was fairly small when I started - 500 people in 8 offices. I used to eat lunch with the president. Over the years, the company grew, was sold, was resold, and eventually became part of a large engineering company with 100,000 employees. One of the first things I was taught, and what made our company so good when it was young, was loyalty and dedication to our clients. We fought for them. There was passion. It was important to me that they trusted me, that they could trust me.

This was tempered by my understanding of my professional responsibilities as a licensed engineer. An engineer has specific responsibilities to society, the public, and the law that override those to our clients. In 30 years I never did anything for a client that I thought was illegal, unethical, or dishonorable.

I've never met a competent person - mechanic, doctor, engineer, cook, cashier, dentist... - who didn't care about providing good service to their client, customer, patient. This is from an Emerson essay I love - "Compensation."

Labor is watched over by the same pitiless laws. Cheapest, say the prudent, is the dearest labor. What we buy in a broom, a mat, a wagon, a knife, is some application of good sense to a common want. It is best to pay in your land a skillful gardener, or to buy good sense applied to gardening; in your sailor, good sense applied to navigation; in the house, good sense applied to cooking, sewing, serving; in your agent, good sense applied to accounts and affairs. So do you multiply your presence, or spread yourself throughout your estate. But because of the dual constitution of things, in labor as in life there can be no cheating. The thief steals from himself. The swindler swindles himself.

For the real price of labor is knowledge and virtue, whereof wealth and credit are signs. These signs, like paper money, may be counterfeited or stolen, but that which they represent, namely, knowledge and virtue, cannot be counterfeited or stolen. These ends of labor cannot be answered but by real exertions of the mind, and in obedience to pure motives. The cheat, the defaulter, the gambler, cannot extort the knowledge of material and moral nature which his honest care and pains yield to the operative. The law of nature is, Do the thing, and you shall have the power: but they who do not the thing have not the power.

I've never met a competent person - mechanic, doctor, engineer, cook, cashier, dentist... - who didn't care about providing good service to their client, customer, patient. — T Clark

Indeed well put. Yes, and the pride in quality work means you do it just as well for someone you do not particularly like or who does not like you.

I like the Emerson quote. You may know this, Nietzsche adored Emerson and called him his "twin soul".

Nietzsche adored Emerson and called him his "twin soul". — Tom Storm

No, I didn't know that. Thanks.