I'd prefer that by "democratic", the EU would follow the will of most of its participants when it comes to policy. That's still a long way off. — Manuel

wonder what you mean by "democratic".
It seems you mean something like "being voted into a position of power, as opposed to inheriting it or usurping it". — baker

There's direct democracy and then there's represenative democracy. Just pointing out a useful distinction.

Yeah. I'm not going to pretend that the EU become an example of direct democracy overnight or anything like that. But I think the totality of its citizens should be able to elect people to represent them in a manner that actually affects economic policy and foreign policy.

Granted, that is not going to be easy at all, given different countries, cultures and the like. But a political (not solely an economic) "union" merits that name if citizens could have a say in what laws they'd like, to some extent. Right now, it's extremely little, in my opinion.

Right now, it's extremely little, in my opinion. — Manuel

Was that a factor in Brexit? Or no?

Probably. A large part of it feels to me like a "fuck you" to the establishment, which is understandable.

But many factors involved in that.

A large part of it feels to me like a "fuck you" to the establishment, which is understandable. — Manuel

Completely understandable. It's just too bad that folks who want to send that message can't look around and find within their ranks a person of honor, honesty and courage. I mean, it's completely understandable that the estabilishment can't find such a person. After all, they are all politicians. But you'd think a group of "fuck you" people could find one. If they did, then the "fuck you" people on both the left and the right could get behind them.

On the other hand, I'm probably wrong. We couldn't get the right behind Sanders, so . . .

It's messy. And it also isn't easy to make as strong a case for leaving for the left as there is for the right. There were leftists who wanted to leave and presented decent arguments, but they could not organize effectively enough as the right did.

Thing is, a portion of "leave" people were probably not thinking much about left or right.

Much like in the US, people who voted for Obama ended up voting for Trump, especially in the rust belt.

Are there fascist political groups where you are?

Where I am currently? No. Not that I'm aware. Political parties here barely have differentiating platforms. I don't know if some belongs to left or right.

But, the possibility of some kind of fascism always lurks in any place. Just look at Brazil.

There were leftists who wanted to leave and presented decent arguments, but they could not organize effectively enough as the right did. — Manuel

True. The right is more susceptible to the fear/paranoia/conspiracy factor; and they make good, blind followers with a strong leader. The left is like herding cats and they disagree with everything and conflict with each other as much as they conflict with the right.

I'm not a big believer in the concept of "deserve" but I kind of think we deserve what we get. Kids, not so much.

The left is like herding cats and they disagree with everything and conflict with each other as much as they conflict with the right. — James Riley

Yep. 100,000%

I think that most of Europe will probably laugh their arses off. Most of think that the gringos are dumbasses anyway and that would be the proof of it. :lol:

But, the possibility of some kind of fascism always lurks in any place — Manuel

True.

Trump made the mess even worse, yes, but the problem for the US is larger than just Trump. The political system in the US is making things worse and the polarization (basically tribalization) isn't just happening because of Trump, even if he is the main actor now on the stage.

I think Andrew Yang explains in this next interview quite well just what is wrong in the US system and why. It's a great assessment that doesn't fall into a partisan side view (even if Yang had been a democrat). A political system that gives power to radicals, a divided media and a social media that alienates people into different camps. Yang goes to detail why it is so.



Europeans should note that this turmoil in US domestic politics isn't going away any time soon. On the contrary, one arbitrary spark could flame it again. And thanks to the dominant position of the American media, we will hear it immediately also.

So, barring illness Trump will be the next president of the USA — Benkei

He'll ride in on a flying pig and open the world's first fission reactor.

I'd prefer that by "democratic", the EU would follow the will of most of its participants when it comes to policy. — Manuel

And let right-wingers win?

He'll ride in on a flying pig and open the world's first fission reactor. — Wayfarer

Sorry, but as always, you underestimate him and the support he has.

In such a system, what matters the most is whose will prevails
— baker

Yes. Believe it or not, democracy is about power. — frank

Then you shouldn't fret when Trump and co. win.

Once you hold that what matters is whose will prevails, you can quit the pretense of being intelligent and just grunt.

Depends on how questions are framed, you can get right wing sounding answers or left wing sounding answers.

But a democracy often means getting a person you hate being prime minister or president. If it comes to something with ugly authoritarian tendencies, like Bolsonaro or Erdogan, then anyone has a right to protest and resist as much as possible.

Then you shouldn't fret when Trump and co. win.

Once you hold that what matters is whose will prevails, you can quit the pretense of being intelligent and just grunt. — baker

It doesn't appear to me that you understand what democracy is. You have to have the emotional maturity to accept loss.

It doesn't appear to me that you understand what democracy is. You have to have the emotional maturity to accept loss. — frank

Eh?

Where is the "emotional maturity" of doing politics primarily or even solely on the level of whose will prevails??

to accept loss — frank

You speak like a right-winger. Formulating things in terms of winning and losing, while caring nothing about the problems at hand that politicians are supposed to solve.

Where is the "emotional maturity" of doing politics primarily or even solely on the level of whose will prevails?? — baker

It requires enough faith in people that you can allow them to discover their own way.

Every generation faces challenges to that faith. People who want to destroy that faith abound. You're an example of a person who's never had that faith.

It's not for everyone. That's for sure.

It requires enough faith in people that you can allow them to discover their own way.

Every generation faces challenges to that faith. People who want to destroy that faith abound. You're an example of a person who's never had that faith.

It's not for everyone. That's for sure. — frank

Wow. Just wow. Jesus.

I used to play some amateur soccer. I liked the dynamics of the game, the tactics, the precision. But I never could relate to other players' obsession with winning. Why they were elated when they scored a goal, or why they were depressed when they failed to do so.

If they are in it for winning, then why bother with soccer and with the rules by which it is supposed to be played?? Why not just get into a fist fight and settle the score once and for all??

Doing sports, or politics, for that matter, when what one really wants is a fist fight, makes sports or politics a sick joke.

Wow. Just wow. Jesus. — baker

Aren't you from eastern Europe? If so, you get no wow from me. You're what I would expect.

you underestimate him — baker

Just remind me, which President lost his party the Senate, the Congress, and the White House, after only one term?

Don't fall for the illusion that he's powerful. Falling for the illusion is the only thing that makes him powerful.

I’m not a betting man, but if I were, I would bet money on Trump being finished politically. He has a core of fanatical support, but they’re diminishing in numbers and influence. My bet is that he will never hold public office again. Currently, right at this moment, he’s telling Republicans not to vote in the mid-term elections until he’s re-instated as President. Oh, and this thread should be merged.

Yeah, and Liz Cheney ought to run for POTUS. Not to drive a wedge and sink the party, but to offer real Republicans an avenue to redeem themselves and return to the United States. I disagree with her on most all things, but she's more conservative than Trump, more Republican than Trump, more honest than Trump, more honorable than Trump, has bigger balls than Trump, has more integrity than Trump, has more dignity than Trump and she's not as big an asshole as Trump.

Never mind. Fuck Republicans. She should run to drive a wedge and sink the party.

The EU should hire one of the crack hit squads from Israel who would make sure Donald Trump never set foot in the White House again. They could take care of a few others, while they were at it.

he's got 'em on the list;
and they'll none of 'em be missed!
--per KoKo in the Mikado.

Aren't you from eastern Europe? If so, you get no wow from me. You're what I would expect. — frank

And you're an American cowboy.

It requires enough faith in people that you can allow them to discover their own way.

Every generation faces challenges to that faith. People who want to destroy that faith abound. You're an example of a person who's never had that faith.

It's not for everyone. That's for sure. — frank

How ironic then that your Founding Fathers instated the Electoral College, precisely because they didn't have the faith that people should be "allowed to discover their own way".

Anyway, it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation with you, because you're such a dichotomous thinker. As is typical for Americans ...