Taking from the infinite.

TiredThinker

I was unable to take any calculus classes due to being in special ed (because of stupid) so I never learned very much about infinites so bare with me. If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift?

jgill

so bare with me — TiredThinker

I think not! Some nerve. :gasp:

No butterfly effect. Just the opposite. I wouldn't say the ocean is infinite. It just seems that way.

I don't think one can go much further on this topic. But, as usual, I could be wrong.

TiredThinker

Why can't one go further on this topic? Haven't there been multiple definitions of infinity,

Banno

Seems to me if you take a cup of water from an infinft sea, you still have an infinite sea.

fishfry

Seems to me if you take a cup of water from an infinft sea, you still have an infinite sea. — Banno

And a cup of water! Go figure.

MikeListeral

If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? — TiredThinker

if the ocean was truly infinite there would be no way to take a cup of water from it

cups would not even exist, nor would any space outside of the ocean to move it to

Banno

↪MikeListeral

Why?

An island on an infinite ocean.

MikeListeral

An island on an infinite ocean. — Banno

your trying to describe a finite infinity

which is a contradiction

Banno

Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter?

MikeListeral

Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter? — Banno

nothing is created or destroyed only changed

Banno

nothing is created or destroyed only changed — MikeListeral

When I took my wallet out of my pocket, I created a nothing in my pocket.

MikeListeral

When I took my wallet out of my pocket, I created a nothing in my pocket. — Banno

air is in your pocket

so your wallet and the air just traded places

therefore nothing was created or destroyed only traded

jgill

I don't think one can go much further on this topic. But, as usual, I could be wrong. — jgill

How wrong I was, and how deep the posts that followed . . .

Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter? — Banno

nothing is created or destroyed only changed — MikeListeral

MikeListeral

↪jgill

illusions are temporary

reality is eternal

Bradaction

if the ocean was truly infinite there would be no way to take a cup of water from it

cups would not even exist, nor would any space outside of the ocean to move it to — MikeListeral

I disagree, an ocean is an expanse of salt water essentially, which would contain of all the facets of an ocean on earth, given that the terms of the ocean was not specified in the question, it would be an ocean similar in all parts to the ocean on earth, given that that is the defining feature of the ocean. Thus, cups could be found in shipwrecks, and perhaps in garbage patches.

MikeListeral

I disagree, an ocean is an expanse of salt water essentially, which would contain of all the facets of an ocean on earth, given that the terms of the ocean was not specified in the question, it would be an ocean similar in all parts to the ocean on earth, given that that is the defining feature of the ocean. Thus, cups could be found in shipwrecks, and perhaps in garbage patches. — Bradaction

then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never exist

Possibility

If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift? — TiredThinker

Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. It has to do with our limits of perception in relation to the ocean.

Bradaction

then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never exist — MikeListeral

I agree that an infinite ocean would be impossible

DingoJones

2
I was unable to take any calculus classes due to being in special ed (because of stupid) so I never learned very much about infinites so bare with me. If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift? — TiredThinker

The infinite ocean would have an infinite amount of drops for you to take. You would still be able to take drops, thete would just be an infinite number to take.
I think the drop being removed wouldn't matter as to the size of the ocean but that doesnt mean there would be no “butterfly effect”, it just means whatever that butterfly effect happens to be it will not effect the infinity of the ocean.

Banno

then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never exist — MikeListeral

I agree that an infinite ocean would be impossible — Bradaction

The equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting "Nah, nah, nah..." in the hope that the problem will go away.

Sure, infinite oceans are impossible.

But if we had one, and we took a drop from it, the ocean would still be infinite.

That's what infinity does.

Yep, the drop is a free gift.

Bradaction

But if we had one, and we took a drop from it, the ocean would still be infinite. — Banno

Where would one put the drop of water? Who would take it. Of course, is an infinitely expanding ocean fundamentally the same as an infinite ocean?

Banno

Where would one put the drop of water? — Bradaction

In the cup.

Who would take it. — Bradaction

Me. Or @TiredThinker. Either will do.

is an infinitely expanding ocean fundamentally the same as an infinite ocean? — Bradaction

Yes, except that it is expanding.

What threads like this show is that folk have odd notions of infinity.

Banno

Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. — Possibility

Tell that to a mathematician.

DingoJones

What threads like this show is that folk have odd notions of infinity. — Banno

To be fair infinity is an odd notion to start with. I learned that one infinity can be bigger than another infinity and that was even stranger. Its a niche concept imo, but yes, odd.

Banno

↪DingoJones

Fun, but.

Then we get things like:

Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. — Possibility

Which is just wrong.

jgill

Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. — Possibility

Tell that to a mathematician. — Banno

Depends on the mathematician. For me, usually infinity is unboundedness, hence a quality of sorts.

DingoJones

↪Banno

Indeed, a term being hijacked and slaved to a specific position or argument. Par for the course round these parts.

TonesInDeepFreeze

'is infinite' is a predicate. a set is infinite iff it is not finite.

'infinity' as a name occurs as sometimes, such as points in the extended real system. But that is different from the sense 'is infinite'. And such points are not required themselves to be infinite sets, though in some treatments they are.

'to infinity' in such statements as regards limits is not a separable term but abides only in the structure of a larger notation.

TonesInDeepFreeze

Infinite is a quality, not a quantity.
— Possibility
Which is just wrong. — Banno

It's right. The quantities are the particular cardinalities. No cardinality itself is 'infinity'. Rather, each infinite cardinality has the property of being infinite.

TonesInDeepFreeze

one infinity can be bigger than another infinity — DingoJones

One infinite set may be larger than another infinite set.

Banno

No cardinality itself is 'infinity'. Rather, each infinite cardinality has the property of being infinite. — TonesInDeepFreeze

Infinities - all of them - are cardinalities.

Like odd numbers.

Taking from the infinite.

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