• TiredThinker
    2
    I was unable to take any calculus classes due to being in special ed (because of stupid) so I never learned very much about infinites so bare with me. If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift?
  • jgill
    7
    so bare with meTiredThinker

    I think not! Some nerve. :gasp:

    No butterfly effect. Just the opposite. I wouldn't say the ocean is infinite. It just seems that way.

    I don't think one can go much further on this topic. But, as usual, I could be wrong.
  • TiredThinker
    2
    Why can't one go further on this topic? Haven't there been multiple definitions of infinity,
  • Banno
    27
    Seems to me if you take a cup of water from an infinft sea, you still have an infinite sea.
  • fishfry
    9
    Seems to me if you take a cup of water from an infinft sea, you still have an infinite sea.Banno

    And a cup of water! Go figure.
  • MikeListeral
    2
    If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean?TiredThinker

    if the ocean was truly infinite there would be no way to take a cup of water from it

    cups would not even exist, nor would any space outside of the ocean to move it to
  • Banno
    27
    Why?

    An island on an infinite ocean.
  • MikeListeral
    2
    An island on an infinite ocean.Banno

    your trying to describe a finite infinity

    which is a contradiction
  • Banno
    27
    Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter?
  • MikeListeral
    2
    Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter?Banno

    nothing is created or destroyed only changed
  • Banno
    27
    nothing is created or destroyed only changedMikeListeral

    When I took my wallet out of my pocket, I created a nothing in my pocket.
  • MikeListeral
    2
    When I took my wallet out of my pocket, I created a nothing in my pocket.Banno

    air is in your pocket

    so your wallet and the air just traded places

    therefore nothing was created or destroyed only traded
  • jgill
    7
    I don't think one can go much further on this topic. But, as usual, I could be wrong.jgill

    How wrong I was, and how deep the posts that followed . . .

    Can you have a shape with a finite area and yet an infinite perimeter? — Banno

    nothing is created or destroyed only changed
    MikeListeral
  • MikeListeral
    2


    illusions are temporary

    reality is eternal
  • Bradaction
    5
    if the ocean was truly infinite there would be no way to take a cup of water from it

    cups would not even exist, nor would any space outside of the ocean to move it to
    MikeListeral

    I disagree, an ocean is an expanse of salt water essentially, which would contain of all the facets of an ocean on earth, given that the terms of the ocean was not specified in the question, it would be an ocean similar in all parts to the ocean on earth, given that that is the defining feature of the ocean. Thus, cups could be found in shipwrecks, and perhaps in garbage patches.
  • MikeListeral
    2
    I disagree, an ocean is an expanse of salt water essentially, which would contain of all the facets of an ocean on earth, given that the terms of the ocean was not specified in the question, it would be an ocean similar in all parts to the ocean on earth, given that that is the defining feature of the ocean. Thus, cups could be found in shipwrecks, and perhaps in garbage patches.Bradaction

    then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never exist
  • Possibility
    14
    If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift?TiredThinker

    Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. It has to do with our limits of perception in relation to the ocean.
  • Bradaction
    5
    then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never existMikeListeral

    I agree that an infinite ocean would be impossible
  • DingoJones
    6
    2
    I was unable to take any calculus classes due to being in special ed (because of stupid) so I never learned very much about infinites so bare with me. If someone took a single drop of water of finite size from an infinite ocean would it actually be taking from the ocean? Would the ocean replace that exact drop immediately upon it being taken or would it simply never matter? I assume there could be no butterfly effect and nothing could really be changed by it? Is the drop a free gift?
    TiredThinker

    The infinite ocean would have an infinite amount of drops for you to take. You would still be able to take drops, thete would just be an infinite number to take.
    I think the drop being removed wouldn't matter as to the size of the ocean but that doesnt mean there would be no “butterfly effect”, it just means whatever that butterfly effect happens to be it will not effect the infinity of the ocean.
  • Banno
    27
    then an infinite ocean is impossible and would never existMikeListeral

    I agree that an infinite ocean would be impossibleBradaction

    The equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting "Nah, nah, nah..." in the hope that the problem will go away.

    Sure, infinite oceans are impossible.

    But if we had one, and we took a drop from it, the ocean would still be infinite.

    That's what infinity does.

    Yep, the drop is a free gift.
  • Bradaction
    5
    But if we had one, and we took a drop from it, the ocean would still be infinite.Banno

    Where would one put the drop of water? Who would take it. Of course, is an infinitely expanding ocean fundamentally the same as an infinite ocean?
  • Banno
    27
    Where would one put the drop of water?Bradaction

    In the cup.
    Who would take it.Bradaction
    Me. Or @TiredThinker. Either will do.

    is an infinitely expanding ocean fundamentally the same as an infinite ocean?Bradaction
    Yes, except that it is expanding.

    What threads like this show is that folk have odd notions of infinity.
  • Banno
    27
    Infinite is a quality, not a quantity.Possibility

    Tell that to a mathematician.
  • DingoJones
    6
    What threads like this show is that folk have odd notions of infinity.Banno

    To be fair infinity is an odd notion to start with. I learned that one infinity can be bigger than another infinity and that was even stranger. Its a niche concept imo, but yes, odd.
  • Banno
    27


    Fun, but.

    Then we get things like:
    Infinite is a quality, not a quantity.Possibility
    Which is just wrong.
  • jgill
    7
    Infinite is a quality, not a quantity. — Possibility

    Tell that to a mathematician.
    Banno

    Depends on the mathematician. For me, usually infinity is unboundedness, hence a quality of sorts.
  • DingoJones
    6


    Indeed, a term being hijacked and slaved to a specific position or argument. Par for the course round these parts.
  • TonesInDeepFreeze
    10
    'is infinite' is a predicate. a set is infinite iff it is not finite.

    'infinity' as a name occurs as sometimes, such as points in the extended real system. But that is different from the sense 'is infinite'. And such points are not required themselves to be infinite sets, though in some treatments they are.

    'to infinity' in such statements as regards limits is not a separable term but abides only in the structure of a larger notation.
  • TonesInDeepFreeze
    10
    Infinite is a quality, not a quantity.
    — Possibility
    Which is just wrong.
    Banno

    It's right. The quantities are the particular cardinalities. No cardinality itself is 'infinity'. Rather, each infinite cardinality has the property of being infinite.
  • TonesInDeepFreeze
    10
    one infinity can be bigger than another infinityDingoJones

    One infinite set may be larger than another infinite set.
  • Banno
    27
    No cardinality itself is 'infinity'. Rather, each infinite cardinality has the property of being infinite.TonesInDeepFreeze

    Infinities - all of them - are cardinalities.

    Like odd numbers.
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