https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/biden-administration-hillary-clinton-un-ambassador-b1722378.html

"Joe Biden is reported to be considering Hillary Clinton for a role in his administration, with the former secretary of state in the running to become the US ambassador to the United Nations."

If Biden actually does this, I think it would be fair to say that he is, in all seriousness, a bigger moron than Trump could ever be. People - rightly - detested Hillary so much that they took to the polls to vote in a swamp creature like Trump, and now this utter fucking moron reckons it's a good idea to even want to have the slightest thing to do with her? Trump should just put Biden on his staff and get it over with. It'd do away with the pretence that Biden isn't doing everything in his power to get Trump - or someone exactly in his mould - to get reelected in 2024.

Xmas comes early and will last years if Biden appoints HRC Attorney General, allowing her to oversee federal prosecutions, and/or assist with state prosecutions, of TR45H & his crime family. Just because she is very unpopular, it doesn't follow that the majority of voters will hold her being appointed to some role in the next Administration against Biden or the Dems in 2022 or 2024. Calm down, comrade, you're hyperventilating at shadows! Neoliberalism isn't going away anytime soon, and everyone who voted for Biden knows that; they voted, primarily, to throw out the TR45H ... Biden's, and America's, fortunes turn almost exclusively on how well or badly the coming Administration (1) contains the pandemic and (2) revives the real "Main Street" economy. Best case scenario 2021-2024 - an Obama-Clinton (DLC) Restoration - effective clean-up of the one-term TR45H trumpster fire. Triage, not (structural) reform, not revolution, not liberation. Feigning surprise (or disgust) like a latter day "Captain Renault" betrays either trollish disingenuity, SLX, or lack of understanding of the current American situation ...

Nah, Hilary should be dead in a ditch or strung up, veins popping, not in any position of power - just because what? You want your petty revenge over some tool for power? No time for these dumb games. Biden's a fucking scumbag and I will continue to treat him like one until his fucking dementia catches up to him.

Seriously, anyone who is not as critical of Biden as they were of Trump may as well be a Trump supporter.

Well, SLX, your rants - a few of which do hit the mark - are not "critical" of either IMO so you "may as well be a Trump supporter" too like Hindu, NOS, et al ...

I love this, thousands protest the 'steal' in DC and Trump passes them by on his way to go golfing. — praxis

The golf course by the factory lay
So the boys could see the men at play

It's possible to be critical of Biden and agree with @180 Proof on this. Things that aren't going to change include some important stuff like the US's pro-Israel stance, neoliberal economics etc. Things that are going to change also include important stuff like courts around the country no longer being packed with unqualified conservative extremists and renewed efforts to combat climate change. There's also the issue of minorities not having to live under an openly racist, quasi-fascist nutjob. Let's have a balanced conversation about this.

Seriously, anyone who is not as critical of Biden as they were of Trump may as well be a Trump supporter — StreetlightX

It was you who pointed out more strongly than anyone else that the focus on Trump for being Trump was misguided. You're making the same mistake with Biden (and Hillary) as far as I can see.

:up:

It was you who pointed out more strongly than anyone else that the focus on Trump for being Trump was misguided. You're making the same mistake with Biden (and Hillary) as far as I can see. — Baden

So far my posts have been spurred by the appointments to Biden's transition team and the news that Clinton is even under consideration at all from a UN posting, so I really don't think that's the case.

And as far as the caricatures of 'revolution' vs 'triage' - as if 50 years of losers calling for 'triage' and continuing to lose hasn't taught anyone anything - or the farcical idea that Biden would indeed put any kind of dent into neoliberal hegemony - that's projected idiocy designed to stop conversation. The only relevant question right now is how to prevent the next Trump, that's it. No one seriously expects Biden to end capitalism tomorrow, but holy shit he can at least pretend to try and mark a break with the very politics that catapulted Trump to power rather than chummy right back up to it from day minus-90 or whatever it currently is. That's the choice for Biden: to forcefully distinguish himself from the politics which Trump - correctly - turned America's collective anger against, or to act as a red carpet to the next piece of shit ready and willing to strike up the Trumpian embers - still glowing hot - once again.

People need to get into their thick skulls that Biden lies on a line continuous with Trump - he literally preceded and so enabled him - and that unless he flags some measure of discontinuity, of actively breaking with the politics of the present - 'revolution' be damned for all I care at this point - then the next Trump is already in the pipeline, to be lubricated by a vaseline Biden, all the better to stick up America's already bleeding rear-end.

So I really, honest-to-ever-loving-God, in all sincerity, mean it when I say - anyone who is not as critical of Biden as they were of Trump may as well be a Trump supporter.

Sounds like you haven't being paying attention to anything specific that's happened during this cycle and are just intent on repeating the same shit we already know as if we're all stupid because we're not listening to you. Nice strawman.

Here's a dose of reality on the specifics of what happened this time around. Biden got 78 million votes. That's 10 million more than Obama. The left (what there is of it in America and there isn't much) came out en masse and voted against Trump. So there wasn't a turnout issue. But even then, Biden only won because suburban moderates couldn't stand orangeman enough that they got pushed Dem. Suburban moderates don't vote for "socialists". Conclusion, Bernie would have lost (and I say this as someone who previously thought he could win). And any, even mildly, leftwing candidate would have lost. And then what? Vaseline, lube, arse on fire, Trump for another four years. Great, you may say, taught those neolibs a lesson. But then what? America flips socialist in 2024? AOC for pres? Accelerationism? What?

The reality is that the structure of the electoral college and the Senate means any shift left in the Dems will result in a concomitant shift right that will blow up any hope of even milquetoast European style social democratic politics there in the foreseeable future. The only hope I see for change is in the demographics. And those take time. As the boomers die off and minorities become the majority, politics will follow to a degree. In the meantime, it's a holding pattern against the extreme right. And it's fine for you to say "fuck it all" but you don't have to live under Trump and his growing cabal of leftist-hating apparatchiks.

But tell me I'm wrong. Tell me what the realistic alternative to Biden was or is in the current political environment, under the current systemic political constraints, that justifies the burn-down-the-village-to-save-it narrative? Or switch tack like some of us have done to accepting the US is what it is for now and looking at what the left can do tactically in hostile political circumstances to both gain some foothold in terms of policy and stave off another Trumpist-style administration. I'm just not hearing anything of substance from you that you haven't said a million times before that is relevant to the specific place we're in right now and what can be done about it.

I for one am happy to hear attacks on Biden and the Democratic mainstream from the left as Streetlight here is doing, so long as the upshot of it isn’t something like “Dems are equally bad as Reps” or “don’t bother voting” or “you’re bad for voting D” or something. It’s good to raise awareness of the problems that D and R have in common, so long as the upshot isn’t counter to the pragmatic choices that have to be made to keep the worse of them out of power.

“Never, ever in a million years did we see Joe Biden as a destination,” said Nicolas O’Rourke, the Pennsylvania organizing director of Working Families Party Pennsylvania, a labor-aligned third party. “He’s a doorway to the kind of terrain and world that we could actually organize in.
...
About a half-dozen progressive politicians addressed protesters last week. State Rep. Chris Rabb (D., Philadelphia) called Biden “harm reduction” and said work on more liberal policies would only intensify upon his election.”

:up:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/biden-trump-victory-election-2020-progressives-green-new-deal-leftist-aoc-philadelphia-20201112.html

...so long as the upshot isn’t counter to the pragmatic choices that have to be made to keep the worse of them out of power. — Pfhorrest

:up:

This lefty Yank thanks you, brutha. Spot-on. Amen. :100: :clap: SLX's gone fult-tilt 'church revival' hoping to exorcize a 'lesser evil' by speaking in FOX'd-tongues. But at least his reading lists are still inspired. :smirk:

:up:

No worries! I'm not going to piss in a glass that's half full.

But at least his reading lists are still inspired. — 180 Proof

Both of you on that one. :up:

None of this shit matters. The evil underground is only using Biden to cause the downfall of civilization.

It's not 'democratic party' v 'republican party'. It's not conservative v liberal. Trump is a cult leader and is leading millions, lemming-like, into an ocean of delusion and 'alternative facts'. 'Narcissistic void, meet desperate longing. You two will get along great!' It's beyond politics, it's an absolute crisis of American culture and society. What America desperately needs, right now, is some really strong principled conservatives to stand up to Trump - which won't happen, I fear.

I'm just not hearing anything of substance from you that you haven't said a million times before that is relevant to the specific place we're in right now and what can be done about it. — Baden

What? I was critical of Biden before and now that's he poised to continue doing the very things I'd criticized him before on, I'm supposed to get a new line because, what, it's very tiring for you? As I said I've been posting in response to his transition team appointments and vetting considerations, so if that's not specific enough for you perhaps you can suggest exactly what it is you think counts as specific enough.

And gosh, it's not like I'm saying much other than to remain vigorously critical of Biden, especially in his role as a Trump lubrication machine. That this is seen as some out of touch idealism is so stupid I don't know where to begin. As for this analysis:

any shift left in the Dems will result in a concomitant shift right — Baden

I can't disagree more. First, worrying about a 'shift on the right' when the right in the US is basically Nazi apologetics is simply not a concern anyone should take seriously. North of the north pole is nothing. Second, the narrative being pushed - and which I'm afraid that you're uncritically reproducing - that left-wing policy and candidates have no political viability is quite frankly empirically false. The fact is that progressive politics does well in the US when not set against the force of national-level propaganda. Case in point:

Moreover, it is blindingly obvious to anyone that it was precisely the strategy to 'stick to the centre' that resulted in Biden's frankly dismal showing. The fact is that he barely eeked out a win over one of the most abhorrent political leaders in US electoral history, and did so only on account - as you noted - that he wasn't Trump. Add to that the fact that Trump increased his share of republican votes, and the idea of playing it to the centre is a recipe for political death. Further:

(Source).

Americans are clamouring for change. The so-called centre doesn't do well - and is a recipe for Trumpism. The 'right' is occupied territory. That leaves one option, which at every turn shows up to be successful. Conclusion: I do not buy - and no one should buy - into the idea that progressive politics are a dead-end for the democratic party. The exact opposite holds true: not engaging in that policy direction is a royal road to more Trump.

based on your taste in whiskey you might as well. :razz:

Very well said.

How much people here love Bernie, it would have gone down just like the UK elections if he would have been in Biden's place.

:100: :up: :clap:

I can't disagree more. First, worrying about a 'shift on the right' when the right in the US is basically Nazi apologetics is simply not a concern anyone should take seriously. North of the north pole is nothing. Second, the narrative being pushed - and which I'm afraid that you're uncritically reproducing - that left-wing policy and candidates have no political viability is quite frankly empirically false. — StreetlightX

Don't have much time but speaking of uncritical, just to quickly deal with this strawman.

Here's what I said:

The reality is that the structure of the electoral college and the Senate means any shift left in the Dems will result in a concomitant shift right that will blow up any hope of even milquetoast European style social democratic politics there in the foreseeable future. — Baden

You left out the important context in your reply.

And you demonstrate this by presenting data on a bunch of House races. This is where you are not paying attention, again. The Senate and the electoral college are set up in such a way that disadvantages the left. So, when you move left in areas that can result in local gains in liberal areas, you risk the Senate and you risk the electoral college. And I think you know this, so I'm not going to go into detail on it unless you insist on pressing the fantasy that somehow a big heave-ho left would be uniformly politically advantageous. And no, it doesn't matter that left-wing policies are actually popular with the general public because the general public does not decide who runs the country, a small group of voters in states with outsize representation in the Senate and the electoral college do.

So, where the left goes wrong and your gung-ho hang-the-bastards shtick is a good example of this (and is something I've been guilty of myself), is being crap tactically, acting like because we have the moral high ground, somehow we'll win. Sorry, but that's kindergarten-level politics.

Moreover, it is blindingly obvious to anyone that it was precisely the strategy to 'stick to the centre' that resulted in Biden's frankly dismal showing. The fact is that he barely eeked out a win over one of the most abhorrent political leaders in US electoral history, and did so only on account - as you noted - that he wasn't Trump. — StreetlightX

Dude, have you forgotten what got us here? Have you forgotten how Bernie got destroyed vs Biden in just the places he needed to win to swing the election? Have you forgotten how unpopular he was with voters in swing states that helped Biden scrape through in the general? Do you seriously think Bernie would have won Georgia, for example, when the southern black vote went overwhelmingly for Biden in the primaries? And the Senate? Again, the competitive races are in relatively conservative states. It's arguable that Bernie may have done better with the House and may also have won the popular vote, but the Dems have the House anyway and the popular vote doesn't mean shit. Also, I've mentioned the demographics, Bernie voters held their nose and voted for Biden, but moderate suburbanites in conservative-leaning states like Georgia and Wisconsin, who could easily have been scared off Bernie showed up for Biden. These are the folks for whom left-wing slogans like "defund the police" are anathema. And their support is the reason Biden who, according to you, had a "dismal" showing won 10 million more votes than any other winning candidate in history. Wake up, man.

Sum of my point is that tactical stupidity is rife among the left. And it's a tactical stupidity that ignores the systemic conservative bias in the US and the huge disadvantage to the left that presents, which is only compounded culturally. So, the left end up being sheep in wolves clothing. The "defund the police" slogan is a good example. The slogan being the wolf, the reality, the sheep. The police are never going to be "defunded" in any meaningful widespread way, but the slogan is primed to scare away just the voters in the places that are needed to give power to the left to do anything about the police. Circle jerks on ideological purity end up achieving nothing but filling the cannons of the right's propaganda fear campaign. You could just as easily call it "reform the police" with no substantive change in aim. But, no we must have a fight, so we can lose again. Fuck that. Enough. Time for a smarter approach. That's my central point, not a criticism of you criticizing Biden but the self-destructive and politically naive nature of your critique, which seems more about blowing off steam than any attempt to realistically further the goals of the left. What it says to me is you don't understand America and, maybe, you don't care enough to understand it because you are just too overwhelmed by contempt. Which is fine, but you're not going to contribute anything of value with that attitude.

Btw, it should be obvious from the above that I've changed my view somewhat from the position I took around the time of the primaries. I've changed it because I've been observing and learning. I suggest you do the same.

I really, honest-to-ever-loving-God, in all sincerity, mean it when I say - anyone who is not as critical of Biden as they were of Trump may as well be a Trump supporter. — StreetlightX

... systemic conservative bias in the US and the huge disadvantage to the left that presents, ... [?] what the left can do tactically in hostile political circumstances to both gain some foothold in terms of policy and stave off another Trumpist-style administration. [/?] — Baden

Time for a smarter approach. — Baden

Leftists start from the top of the ladder and climb down a couple of rungs, rightists start from the mud and climb up maybe a quarter of the way. Pragmatists have a smarter approach, they start in the middle with some facts then climb a bit both up and down. They can then make the claim and actually the appearance of pleasing both sides. Is Russia communist or fascist? I can't decide.

Honestly, most of your reply makes no sense as a response to what I wrote. I didn't so much as even mention the name 'Bernie', nor BLM or it's slogans, yet a full two thirds of your post was spent tilting at those windmills. I mean, fine, if they stand as the most prominent barometers of the kinds of discontinuity that I'm calling for, and if you think they are tactically compromised than so be it. This doesn't change the fact that a Biden presidency doing everything it can to Make America Obamaish Again is just about the most straightforward recipe for Trump 2.0 anyone could deign to come up with. Resetting the clock 6 years back, to the precise time at which the conditions for a Trump were brewing with furious consistency - lack of senate control and all - is just about the height of political stupidity. A height which Biden is on track to scale with both enthusiasm and abandon.

As for the senate, considering the change in seats is looking to be on the order of the number of the limbs I have, it's not exactly as if Biden's vacuity as a candidate was what one might call sharp litmus test here. As for this much vaunted 'smarter approach' - which boils down to what? Giving the status quo a chance? The poor thing, it's only been at work for the last 5 decades, I'm sure it really needs it - it's the same ineffectual gently-gently nothingness that got the US to where it is now. And as for forgetting 'what got us here'? No, I remember it all too well: it was the current president-elect, and everything he continues to stand for.

I was critical of Biden before and now that's he poised to continue doing the very things I'd criticized him before on, I'm supposed to get a new line because, what, it's very tiring for you? — StreetlightX

What you're doing is not criticism, it's venting. Biden is President-elect and all anyone on the left should care about now is what they can get him to do for the left. Period. I couldn't give two fucks whether he's evil or not at this point, I want to make it politically expedient for him to do what serves the interests of the politics I support. And if you think calling for his transition picks' disembowelling (or whatever) with the Senate still up for grabs is "criticism" in any meaningful sense then, yes, you do need to get a new line because that's not going to help the people on the ground who are going to have to live under this administration and a potential McConnell stranglehold in the Senate.



What I've written above before I saw your reply serves as mostly an adequate response to what you've added. My only other question is, given we are where we are, what exactly do you want? And what's the path there? Seems to me like you don't have an answer to that. That's my major issue.

As for this much vaunted 'smarter approach' - which boils down to what? Giving the status quo a chance? The poor thing, it's only been at work for the last 5 decades, I'm sure it really needs it - it's the same ineffectual gently-gently nothingness that got the US to where it is now. — StreetlightX

This shouldn't need to be said but to emphasize, no, it's not about giving him a pass, it's about using him insofar as it's possible in a strategic way. That means engagement. Giving him a pass would be something like ranting about how everything is fucked and he's evil, and so giving him the opportunity of painting the left as a bunch of extremist nutjobs who he should ignore. The reality is the diametric opposite of the way you're painting it. Essentially, you're the smartest guy in the room with the worst attitude.

It's not about giving him a pass, it's about using him insofar as it's possible in a strategic way. — Baden

This is unimaginably naive. Do me favour. Take a quick read of this rundown of Biden prep appointees. We can keep Hillary and - Rahm fucking Emmanuel, an apparently new contender - out of it for now, despite the fact that Biden hasn't made immediate moves to quash the very idea of their appointments (you want something concrete? I'd start there). Anyway:

Get to the end of that and tell me with a straight face that anyone who isn't a neoliberal warhawk will actually manage to make any kind of policy impression on a Biden administration. You think you can use Biden? And I'm the nutjob? With that kind of a team at hand? That's fantasy. Fairytales for the easily duped. You want concrete? Read that list of actual people, with actual hands, on actual nascent policy levers. It's funny: people tell me I'm the ideologue divorced from reality, when I'm literally the only one here bringing specific, actual moves Biden has so far made to the table of discussion. Everything else has been projections of misplaced hope and fantasizing warped by the black hole of Trump to make even shit look shiny.

Biden is President-elect and all anyone on the left should care about now is what they can get him to do for the left. Period. I couldn't give two fucks whether he's evil or not at this point, I want to make it politically expedient for him to do what serves the interests of the politics I support. — Baden

:100: :clap:

Hopefully you can help deliver the Senate to the Dems and keep McConnell out of power. The fate of any stimulus rests on flipping both Georgia seats.

We're trying like hell. :mask: On the ground here in Atlanta, in the midst of the pandemic, the struggle to keep all potential Democratic-leaning voters mobilized & engaged goes on. Like so many of others, my neighbors and out-of-state comrades, I'm giving whatever I have left to that end; and though confident now, I'm not optimistic yet.