Minds opened or closed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=RFO6ZhUW38w

If anyone can show me one example
In the history of the world
Of a single psychic
Who has been able to prove
Under reasonable experimental conditions
That they are able to read minds

And if anyone can show me one example
In the history of the world
Of a single astrologer
Who has been able to prove
Under reasonable experimental conditions
That they can predict future human events
By interpreting celestial signs

And if anyone can show me one example
In the history of the world
Of a single homeopathic practitioner
Who has been able to prove
Under reasonable experimental conditions
That solutions made of infinitely tiny particles of good stuff
Dissolved repeatedly into relatively huge quantities of water
Has a consistently higher medicinal value
Than a similarly-administered placebo

And if anyone can show me one example
In the history of the world
Of a single spiritual or religious person
Who has been able to prove
Either logically or empirically
The existence of a higher power
That has any consciousness or interest in the human race
Or ability to punish or reward humans for their moral choices
Or that there is any reason other than fear
To believe in any version
Of an afterlife
I will give you my piano
One of my legs
And my wife

Science has a lot to answer for, Mayor of Simpleton. Even science realises its limitations when it constantly updates and changes its beliefs.

Science has a lot to answer for, Mayor of Simpleton. Even science realises its limitations when it constantly updates and changes its beliefs. — david plumb

Exactly... and science does this on a regular basis.

That's what is completely missing in religious belief.

Science (which is a process... it's not a belief system in an of itself) knows it doesn't know everything, as if it did know everything it would stop.

Religious lays claim to a certainty it cannot back with anything other that saying 'because it's so' and has essentially stopped investigations, as this self-assumed certainty grants them no more cause to investigate further. All you need is faith, so facts matter little and in the end religion has little to answer for.

More or less science starts with what can be observed, tests it and refines it's conclusions provided a conclusion can be drawn form the process. There is no principle in science that state the scientist need be satisfied with the results.

Religions starts with drawing the conclusion then creates 'tests' that conform to the conclusion using only that which is observed that fits the conclusion subsequently tossing out anything else observed that might come into conflict pre-assumed conclusion. In religion the believer will in the end be satisfied with the results of the loaded dice they toss about.

So which is really closed minded?

The one who knows they don't know everything or the one who decrees in all certainty a conclusion of which they have no evidence or support other than saying 'because it's so'?

"The one who knows they don't know everything or the one who decrees in all certainty a conclusion of which they have no evidence or support other than saying 'because it's so'?"

My definition of a closed mind, Mayor of Simpleton, is a mind that has made its mind up and then closes that mind to anything that may challenge the closed mind.
Consciously or unconsciously that mind may appear to open but fundamentally it has closed.

My definition of a closed mind, Mayor of Simpleton, is a mind that has made its mind up and then closes that mind to anything that may challenge the closed mind.
Consciously or unconsciously that mind may appear to open but fundamentally it has closed. — david plumb

Indeed... and that sort of 'thinking' is not the realm of scientific method, but is the cornerstone of religious belief.

Celebrities are also the new gods, they perform the same cultural, psychological role . — david plumb

This is why I asked you to provide some sort of evidence. What are your reasons for thinking this? If they do not perform the cultural and psychological roles that I listed, what do they do?

My definition of a closed mind, Mayor of Simpleton, is a mind that has made its mind up and then closes that mind to anything that may challenge the closed mind. — david plumb

So you are very closed minded in your belief the the superheroes of today are the equivalent of the gods of yesterday. Without any evidence to prove your point.

I will give you my piano
One of my legs
And my wife — Mayor of Simpleton

I for one definitely decline to try and prove it, I have 2 legs and I wife already. And I am tone deaf.

A belief is too strong a word to use and can be used to pigeon hole someone. When in discussion with the fundamentalists, rather than those paying lip service to their religion, there seems to be a belief that this life is a spring board to the next. — david plumb

Is it wrong to ask you whether or not you believe in an afterlife given the statements you made in this thread and further that you'd characterize yourself as a man/woman of Christian faith? Perhaps the afterlife is really just what you'll leave behind for your sons and daughters and your neighbor's sons and daughters and your enemy's sons and daughters. In other words, the afterlife is about the lives after (or beside) yours, tribal religious identity notwithstanding.

God protects and so do the super heroes. — david plumb

What God movies have you been watching? I remember watching one where this guy was literally crucified and asking God for help. He didn’t help.

What God movies have you been watching? I remember watching one where this guy was literally crucified and asking God for help. He didn’t help. — praxis

I remember that one, the guy hung there there for a day and died from it. Most of the others that got the same treatment stayed alive for days suffering. What a wimp.

Rewatching the scene just now I can see that I was mistaken. In my defense, it’s a musical and sometimes in musicals I get more rapped in the music than the story. I mean, does anyone remember what happens in Cats beside a catchy tune or two and that it felt kinda weird wanting to bang a hot cat-girl?

He’s ultimately heroic.

:lol: :lol: I remember going to see that, we laughed so much they actually asked us to leave. That was one hell of funny film.

I remember sitting in the pub later an discussing the guy asking his daddy WHY he had to die while all the while implying that he had known about the whole plan from the beginning.

Thanks for the memories.

"Is it wrong to ask you whether or not you believe in an afterlife given the statements you made in this thread and further that you'd characterize yourself as a man/woman of Christian faith?"

It's irrelevant, quite frankly. Wrong seems the wrong (oops!) word to use in this instance as I am not offended by your asking.

"What God movies have you been watching? I remember watching one where this guy was literally crucified and asking God for help. He didn’t help."

That's a crucial part of the Jesus story. It answers why God appears to allow bad things to happen when he could easily not.

"I remember going to see that, we laughed so much they actually asked us to leave. That was one hell of funny film."

You laughed? Each to his own.

"This is why I asked you to provide some sort of evidence. What are your reasons for thinking this? If they do not perform the cultural and psychological roles that I listed, what do they do?"

After laughing in the Christ film I now understand why you have such a problem recognising the subliminal reasoning behind the super heroes.

Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory (wikipedia)

Even if the Frankfurt school could be blamed for whatever historical change one dislikes, there are many other contributory forces. Maybe Capitalism itself, insofar as it must forever appeal to consumer demand in an ever increasing turn of cultural innovation, exploits human desire for profits to the point of undermining the authority of religious institutions. Things change in time even though we might love to complain about it.

Any church/government/culture (what/which?) could have outlawed television, radio and internet. Why didn't they. The Amish still don't use these things...(?)

Existential Comics: The Frankfurt Four

After laughing in the Christ film I now understand why you have such a problem recognising the subliminal reasoning behind the super heroes. — david plumb

I doubt that you understand, because I don't have a problem recognizing subliminal reasoning that does not exist. If it did, you would be able to provide some sort of evidence of its existence. You would pint to a new temple being built to house the Spiderman cult, or the secret sect of Hulk worshipers.
But the only thing that you could possibly point to is a bunch of that go to Comic-Con events dressed as their favorite scifi character. While I agree that some of these people do go beyond reasonable obsessiveness, if you ask them about their hero being a god you will probably be laughed at.

Superheroes do not, have never, and never will take the place of gods because the do not serve the same purpose in any society. If you read a bit of history you will find that heroes and gods have lived side by side for a very long time. Some of them were heroes because they defied the gods, other because they fought for the gods, and some even stepped in to help when the gods would not.

"I don't have a problem recognizing subliminal reasoning that does not exist."

You do state the unusual quite a bit. You recognise something that doesn't exist. That is surprising. I have a real problem recognising anything that doesn't exist, for some reason I only recognise things that exist.

"You would point to a new temple being built to house the Spiderman cult, or the secret sect of Hulk worshipers"

The religious club syndrome is exactly the kind of system that needs to be abolished. Everyone can have their "god" in their own privacy where it does little harm to society. The connection between the "new gods" and the old is evident. The worship of the old God and thus the authoritarian hold over the people is waning and the new era of the super hero gods where they sit nicely in the back of peoples' minds has arrived. The hold over the masses as Orwell predicted has begun and this ignorance about the super heroes sits well with the Frankfurt School plan, I would suggest.

"Superheroes do not, have never, and never will take the place of gods because the do not serve the same purpose in any society."

Beware the intellectual lefties as they understand the value of dumbing down society and attacking those remaining that have the intelligence to challenge the new dawn. Look at it philosophically, i.e objectively for a moment, and notice the rise of the god like celebrities, action heroes, sporting icons etc.


.

"Any church/government/culture (what/which?) could have outlawed television, radio and internet. Why didn't they. The Amish still don't use these things...(?)"

Even the Amish have problems keeping their flock in order. The Church realise the problems of being religious in a secular, commercially driven world and the apologists out there do a very poor job of defending the faith. Their reaction seems to now be one of victimhood and one day the rest of the world will understood the mess they have got themselves in.

It's show business!

[quote="BBZ;465534"

"It's show business!"

And show business is the wolf in a sheep's clothing. On the surface it appears like it is just good fun but in reality the subliminal message is hard to avoid and very cleverly uses the propaganda that reaches out to children's accepting, unquestioning minds.

Beware the intellectual lefties as they understand the value of dumbing down society and attacking those remaining that have the intelligence to challenge the new dawn. Look at it philosophically, i.e objectively for a moment, and notice the rise of the god like celebrities, action heroes, sporting icons etc. — david plumb

Wasn’t it uneducated righties that helped to put a celebrity in the Oval Office in 2016?

Look at it philosophically, i.e objectively for a moment, and notice the rise of the god like celebrities, action heroes, sporting icons etc. — david plumb

What freaking god like characteristic does the kartrashian clan have?
What godlike quality does does David Beckham have?

They are in no way worshiped as gods.

On the surface it appears like it is just good fun but in reality the subliminal message is hard to avoid and very cleverly uses the propaganda that reaches out to children's accepting, unquestioning minds. — david plumb

Holy infantile conditioning Batman, he may be on to something here. :chin: :smirk:
I never knew that what made people think that the Flintstones was a pure and simple kiddies program. It is one of the best examples of subliminal conditioning that I can think of. Watch any episode and you will find messages about how adults are supposed to behave. It contains violence, sexism, crime, child rearing advice and lots of other stuff all nicely wrapped up in a kiddies TV show.

But no one counts Fred or Barney as gods.

I've gone down the Captain Planet rabbit hole because of this thread. Damn 90s cartoons. They got me!

I might now be further corrupted if I read/listen to Murray Bookchin's Social Ecology propaganda. :monkey: Close your eyes, stopper your ears. Too many voices/channels exchanging ideas.

:chin: I like his way of thinking, but it is too late to hear it all today. 20 mins. left for tomorrow.

"What freaking god like characteristic does the kartrashian clan have?
What godlike quality does does David Beckham have?"

There is such confusion. Add to the mix a lack of objectivity and philosophical understanding. Let me try to set you on the right track:
You have the colour blue. It is blue to you but to the colour blind it is not. There are also different shades of blue but to most of us blue is blue. Pedantically you may argue that the blue you are looking at is a light blue but to most people blue is a good enough description.
Transfer that to the God/super heroes question. To you God has x.y and z as you see it but to others the definition of God may not necessarily have the x,y and z as you see it but to them it is God per se.
You have anchored yourself to the constraints of an unphilosophical argument , one that has subjectively already been set in stone and are not seeing it from an alternative person's point of view. Thus you fall into the trap of being easily led to believing there is no threat to belief in God.This is the fundamentalism of the Frankfurt School.

"I've gone down the Captain Planet rabbit hole because of this thread. Damn 90s cartoons. They got me!"

Varrry eenterezting.................It is usual for someone to reduce an important discussion as this thread affords to that of derision and comedic delusion .I concur that you have lost the argument?

"I might now be further corrupted if I read/listen to Murray Bookchin's Social Ecology propaganda. :monkey: Close your eyes, stopper your ears. Too many voices/channels exchanging ideas"

This is good. You are finally seeing the light. — Nils Loc

"But no one counts Fred or Barney as gods"

Rather absurd argument. Fred is hardly a super hero. He constantly tries to outwit his wife and usually gets caught out. Maybe he's a hero to Barney Rubble but not a super hero to anyone. There are subtle nuances in the God like super hero arguments but this is not one of them.