Perhaps you're right. I suppose I just want anyone who votes for Biden to feel like they ought to need crawl out of their own skin or slit their own throats in shame after the fact, is all. Perhaps there's just a disconnect between how much pain and suffering I see Biden has put people through, and how much others just want to live their lives without thinking about it too much. Biden's just some abstract 'lesser evil' for you. I guess he is to most people.

How much attention should it receive if both the intelligence community and two senate commissions, led by republicans, looked into it but haven't found any proof of corruption?

EU pressured firing of Shokin, not the Burisma organisation. Burisma was/is under investigations of things that happened before Hunter Biden was part of the board. You're confusing facts. — Benkei

No, I pointed this out. Quoting myself, an always reliable source:

The left's position is that Burisma was corrupt, that Obama had tried to stop the corruption, that Shokin refused to investigate Burisma, that Shokin himself was corrupt, and that Biden's firing of Shokin was at the request of Obama and the EU for proper purposes. They agree Hunter probably shouldn't have sat on Burisma's board, but it occurred after the Burisma investigation was dormant and it was without Joe's knowledge. They also say the leaked computer information might be a Russian set up. — Hanover

Biden bragged on camera that it was his withholding of $1b in US aid to Ukraine that resulted in a vote by Parliament soon thereafter to fire Shokin. The EU also wanted Shokin out, as I noted above. Biden was the point man for the Obama administration in trying to reduce Ukrainian corruption at the time, which makes Hunter's involvement with Burisma all the crazier. At least admit that much.

But yes, I know the respective arguments from each side, but that Hunter, a pretty useless crackhead, earned $80k per month from a known corrupt organization and that there are now emails (of still questionable veracity) indicating Joe's involvement in that is troubling. I mean, really, do you think Hunter's involvement with Burisma had nothing to do with his dad being VP and his dad having made prior efforts to clean the place up? Do you really think Joe got zero financial benefit from that or that he had no idea what his little boy was up to? But more importantly, do you think there is no story here at all and that it ought not be reported by any news outlet other than Fox and that Facebook and Twitter should block it?

Also, you do realise that in all this, the one party of whom it was proved to have received under the table payments was Paul Manafort. Any corruption found was again on the side of Trump and his stooges.

How much attention should it receive if both the intelligence community and two senate commissions, led by republicans, looked into it but haven't found any proof of corruption? — Benkei

Not exactly a fully clean bill of health: https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-09-23/senate-republicans-issue-findings-on-hunter-bidens-ukraine-work

I really don’t understand why this is so hard for you, you show you hate Biden in the primaries and in year long protests. Some actions involve reducing evil, others are about increasing good. You somehow can’t possibly fathom people hating Biden and knowing the full consequences of the Democrats and have no issue voting, but many people do it. This is the easy and quick part. Honestly, you’re not cut out for politics because there are all sorts of vastly more complicated and compromised decisions in a thousand other moments.

It has everything to do with Hunter being a Biden. Just as paying 15,000 USD for a speech from Obama has everything to do with the fact it being Obama. Whereas, I suspect, I could learn a lot more from a professor of history for a lot less money. The idea that this is suspect is just silly. Once again, the intelligence agencies looked into this.

You just can't seem to accept that whatever Biden did was acceptable and legal, where with Trump we know he does plenty of illegal stuff. That has everything to do with ideology on your side and little with the facts.

Hunter Biden isn't running for president is he?

Hunter Biden isn't running for president is he? — Benkei

Not sure, but I think his dad is, but he spends a lot of time in the basement not answering questions or appearing in public, so I'm not completely sure.

This is the easy and quick. — Saphsin

I haven't argued otherwise.

You're familiar with the guilt by association fallacy?

I'm not talking about explicit arguments, but you are clearly stuck on the mindset of putting so much significance into the act, to the point that the act of voting is like a symbolic endorsement of Biden that must garner shame, rather than a simple act that must be done, one small step in a chain of a thousand necessary actions because of its predictable consequences.

I mean, really, do you think Hunter's involvement with Burisma had nothing to do with his dad being VP and his dad having made prior efforts to clean the place up? Do you really think Joe got zero financial benefit from that or that he had no idea what his little boy was up to? — Hanover

The first part of the story makes sense. Burisma hired the son of the US VP to get better connections with US politicians and thereby soften or avoid further US influence to their detriment. While it is possible that Joe Biden directly set up such a deal, it's at least as plausible that it was simply tactics hatched by Burisma themselves and / or Hunter Biden.

Nothing about the sequence of events suggests that Biden received any personal financial benefits, so that seems to be baseless speculation. Whether he knew what Hunter Biden was up to, I don't know, but his knowledge doesn't seem particularly relevant.

You just can't seem to accept that whatever Biden did was acceptable and legal, where with Trump we know he does plenty of illegal stuff. That has everything to do with ideology on your side and little with the facts. — Benkei

There's a difference between "acceptable" and "legal." Whether Trump is worse is an interesting argument where can try to figure out who sucks more. I'm less ideological than you make me. I've gone back and forth on who to vote for here, and the corruption stuff doesn't really move the needle much for me because I just assume they're all corrupt. If Biden comes out firmly against court packing, I might consider him. My biggest problem with Trump is that he lacks any leadership qualities and instead just fans the flames where ever there is conflict in order to create a stark choice for the voters. A leader sees cities burning and he tries to put the flames out, regardless of who's at fault. I think a country without burning cities is better than one that with, which seems obvious, but no one really seems to want to see that and the deep cultural divides addressed, much less resolved.

The voting thing is indicative. It's symptomatic, nothing more.

The left's position is that Burisma was corrupt, that Obama had tried to stop the corruption, that Shokin refused to investigate Burisma, that Shokin himself was corrupt, and that Biden's firing of Shokin was at the request of Obama and the EU for proper purposes. They agree Hunter probably shouldn't have sat on Burisma's board, but it occurred after the Burisma investigation was dormant and it was without Joe's knowledge. They also say the leaked computer information might be a Russian set up. — Hanover

This is actually false. It was Shokin who blocked the Burisma investigation among other investigations.

You can vote for Trump. That's fine.

My biggest problem with Trump is that he lacks any leadership qualities and instead just fans the flames where ever there is conflict in order to create a stark choice for the voters. — Hanover

Rather euphemistically put, but anyway, four more years of that, yay! :cheer:

You're awful dismissive of Hunter Biden's involvement with an organization that the Obama administration and the EU believed to be corrupt, so much so that they were willing to interfere in the Ukrainian elections process and demand that he be fired. Do you truly believe that Hunter's involvement had nothing to do with Joe and that Joe didn't financially benefit in any way? — Hanover

The Senate investigation found nothing, so yes, I believe that Hunter's involvement had nothing to do with Joe and that Joe didn't financially benefit in any way.

Suppose Donald Jr. did what Hunter did? No big deal?

Taking advantage of his family name to get a well-paid job? No, it's not a big deal. And certainly not something that gives a reason to not vote for Joe. How is it any worse than Trump giving a White House job to Ivanka?

An actual worrisome case is Trump ordering that Kushner be given security clearance despite the red flags, as that's a potential issue of national security. What has Joe allegedly done with respect to Hunter that is comparable to this and that hasn't already been disproved by the Senate investigation?

If Biden comes out firmly against court packing, I might consider him. — Hanover

What if he comes out firmly for court balancing and points to the last five years as an example of what court packing looks like?

:brow:

Who actually thinks in these terms? Indicative and Symptomatic? What does that mean and why should I care. Seriously Wtf

Have you ever played any video games or sports, or read military fiction, or maybe chess? Anything involving tactics? You take out the leading general, and their replacement general is weaker and easier to fight (of course you fight them afterwards) That's the lesser evil, and I fail to see anything problematic. Any serious tactical struggle for power that doesn’t reduce harm (save soldiers, choosing the right enemies) is normative stupidity. Nothing regretful or abstract about that. What's abstract are all these notions you're bringing it up. It's honestly the kind of characteristic centrist liberals are infected with rather than those interested in realist notions like power and advantage.

The political censorship of the New York Post story has nearly doubled the attention in the story, according to Technology Review. Not exactly the smartest move. But even though no parties have disputed the validity of the emails, we’ve gone from “Russian disinfo” to “Hunter isn’t running for president”, minds whipping like a windsock in whatever direction the propaganda tells them to.

Feeling bad doesn’t make anything better. One can completely acknowledge everything that’s wrong with Biden, and also see that voting for him is tactically useful for harm reduction, and then move on to continuing to oppose him and everything he represents, without needlessly feeling bad about having done the right thing when it comes to voting, even though just voting isn’t nearly enough.

Contrapoints just posted a great video on this subject last night:

The left's position is that Burisma was corrupt, that Obama had tried to stop the corruption, that Shokin refused to investigate Burisma, that Shokin himself was corrupt, and that Biden's firing of Shokin was at the request of Obama and the EU for proper purposes. They agree Hunter probably shouldn't have sat on Burisma's board, but it occurred after the Burisma investigation was dormant and it was without Joe's knowledge. They also say the leaked computer information might be a Russian set up.
— Hanover

This is actually false. It was Shokin who blocked the Burisma investigation among other investigations. — Benkei

It's not false. I noted above that Shokin himself was corrupt, and I do know he was accused of seeking bribes, so that's why they wanted him out. Bloomberg reported that the Burisma investigation was not moving forward at the time Hunter joined the board. Regardless, that's majorly fucked up that Biden's son sat on the Board of a company that the US and EU had determined was so corrupt that the US withheld $1b in order to fire the investigator who was refusing to investigate it.

But I get it, you think the Hunter/Joe connection is tenuous at best and that they are two adults living independent lives and that Joe knew nothing of Hunter's involvement and massive financial windfalls he was receiving.

Could be true. I sort of know what my son is up to, but maybe his family is really different from mine. Like if my son rolled up in a Ferrari and told me he didn't need me to cover his college tuition, I'd probably just think good for him and not ask any more questions. Don't want to pry.

The senate investigation disproved nothing. In fact they have a laundry list.

IV. THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE AND STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS WERE AWARE OF BUT IGNORED CONCERNS RELATING TO HUNTER BIDEN’S ROLE ON BURISMA’S BOARD.

V. SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY FALSELY CLAIMED HE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN’S ROLE ON BURISMA’S BOARD.

VI. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS VIEWED MYKOLA ZLOCHEVSKY AS A CORRUPT, “ODIOUS OLIGARCH,” BUT VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS ADVISED NOT TO ACCUSE ZLOCHEVSKY OF CORRUPTION.

VII. WHILE HUNTER BIDEN SERVED ON BURISMA’S BOARD, BURISMA’S OWNER, ZLOCHEVSKY, ALLEGEDLY PAID A $7 MILLION BRIBE TO UKRAINE’S PROSECUTOR GENERAL’S OFFICE TO CLOSE THE CASE.

VIII. HUNTER BIDEN: A SECRET SERVICE PROTECTEE WHILE ON BURISMA’S BOARD.

IX. OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS AND A DEMOCRAT LOBBYING FIRM HAD CONSISTENT AND SIGNIFICANT CONTACT WITH FORMER UKRAINIAN OFFICIAL ANDRII TELIZHENKO.

X. THE MINORITY FALSELY ACCUSED THE CHAIRMEN OF ENGAGING IN A RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN AND USED OTHER TACTICS TO INTERFERE IN THE INVESTIGATION.

XI. HUNTER BIDEN’S AND HIS FAMILY’S FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS WITH UKRAINIAN, RUSSIAN, KAZAKH AND CHINESE NATIONALS RAISE CRIMINAL CONCERNS AND EXTORTION THREATS.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/HSGAC_Finance_Report_FINAL.pdf

Taking advantage of his family name to get a well-paid job? No, it's not a big deal. And certainly not something that gives a reason to not vote for Joe. How is it any worse than Trump giving a White House job to Ivanka? — Michael

Because Burisma isn't a White House job, but is a job at a company that is so corrupt that the US and EU were trying to clean it up.

Once again: there was no pressure on Ukraine from either the US or the EU to investigate Burisma.

Trump’s DOJ is going after Google for unlawfully maintaining monopolies in the markets under the Sherman antitrust act. Silicon Valley soyboys might need to lay off the election interference for a while.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1328941/download

Because Burisma isn't a White House job, but is a job at a company that is so corrupt that the US and EU were trying to clean it up. — Hanover

And what does that have to do with Joe? You seemed to be suggesting that Biden used his position to his son's benefit, hence why I drew a parallel with Trump using his position to his daughter's benefit, but the Senate investigation could not find any evidence of such wrongdoing. So what exactly is the reason you're not voting for Joe? Because Hunter took advantage of his family name to get a well-paid job? Even if that job was at a corrupt company, what does that have to do with Joe, or even Hunter? As far as I'm aware it was Burisma's owner Zlochevsky that was under investigation.

:100:
:up:

In other words, idealists - ideologues - (like @StreetlightX et al) don't have the courage to live dangerously, for instance, according to the maxim "Enemy of my enemy is my ally" here & now, in this situation (Badiou).

All these tRumpy MAGA-trolls, like Pres. Cheeto-face Killer Clown himself, in denial that Hunter Biden, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama & Dr. Fauci are not on the ballot is pathetic.

:victory: :mask: t-minus 14 days.