Yeah I just read that -- apologies for beating a dead horse.

And I own it with pride — Merkwurdichliebe

You take pride in defeatism and fatalism? You're welcome.

I don’t even want to talk about this subject for more than 5 minutes because it’s one small step out of a thousand to think about.

I think it’s an ailment of not being able to juggle multiple ideas in one’s head at the same time because of ideological blinders.

I don’t even want to talk about this subject for more than 5 minutes because it’s one small step out of a thousand to think about. — Saphsin

Again, good instincts.

In a more rational world, 97% of the electorate would simply push the button and then get back to the hard work of pursuing their political goals.

Choosing who to vote for, or choosing not to vote, is about predicting two futures and deciding which is better. You seem to believe either future is equally bad. That's a good reason not to vote.

I believe the future is better with Biden. Policy-wise, I want the ACA to survive and be improved, likely with a public option. Trump wants to eliminate it. I want real immigration reform; that will never happen with Trump. I want Social security rescued - that's much more likely with Biden. I want more judges who have an expansive view of human rights, and Trump is guaranteed to appoint the opposite. With dems in power, there's a better chance of moving in a better direction on climate change, with Trump - well, he doesn't admit there's a problem.

There's more, but these are my top issues.

By contrast, with Trump, we'll get the wall completed, and perhaps a head added to Mount Rushmore.

Even if I believed, as you do, that they're both assholes, I still have good reasons to vote for Biden.

The global economy was on the verge of collapse on his first day in office. Cut him some slack. — frank

Yeah, but he had 8 years to turn into the angry black man that he should have become to really shake shit up. But he didn't. I actually think he got whiter during those eight years. What a shame.

What is achieved by shaking shit up?

Well said. I'm surprised climate change wasn't up there on your list, though. Because in this area the contrast is even MORE striking.

You take pride in defeatism and fatalism? You're welcome. — Xtrix

More so in the irony and humor. Thanks

Yeah, but he had 8 years to turn into the angry black man that he should have become to really shake shit up. But he didn't. I actually think he got whiter during those eight years. What a shame. — Merkwurdichliebe

Could you be just a tad more racist please?

More so in the irony and humor. — Merkwurdichliebe

I fail to see the humor in the destruction of the planet and possibilities of human life. But that's me.

I'm surprised I forgot it too. I'll edit the post.

What is achieved by shaking shit up? — Relativist

If someone with the authority and influence of the US president was merely to shine light on the real issues that are never included on the ballot, I imagine the system would quake, and possibly open the door to real systemic change.

Could you be just a tad more racist please? — frank

Really??? Well, in my opinion, whiteness is unbecoming of a black president.

I fail to see the humor in the destruction of the planet and possibilities of human life. But that's me. — Xtrix

It's only humorous if you keep the irony in view. Otherwise it is just pitiable.

Really??? Well, in my opinion, whiteness is unbecoming of a black president. — Merkwurdichliebe

Cultural appropriation?

If someone with the authority and influence of the US president was merely to shine light on the real issues that are never included on the ballot, I imagine the system would quake, and possibly open the door to real systemic change. — Merkwurdichliebe

Please elaborate. Give me a few of the "real issues."

IMO, Trump has shined a light on some of the big issues in our society: he's exposed racism, xenophobia, self-righteousness, pettiness, and intolerance of disagreement. I don't believe this exposure is helping, I think it has hurt, because these things have been encouraged.

Cultural appropriation? — frank

:rofl: it is cultural appropriation

I still have good reasons to vote for Biden. — Relativist

I don't doubt it, and I haven't argued otherwise.

Please elaborate. Give me a few of the "real issues." — Relativist

The excessive military presence around the world.
A burgeoning police-state. The corporate corruption of the political process. The gradual erosion of constitutional rights.

I'm not concerned with racism, xenophobia, self-righteousness, pettiness, and intolerance. Those are mere symptoms based in the frustration over the seeming futility of enacting true change. They will resolve themselves when the deeper issues are dealt with.

I think of our predicament like an animal trapped in a cage trying to break free, doing whatever it can to break free. But it cannot find the bars of the cage, so it creates an imaginary cage with imaginary bars that can be readily found, thus it can have something to potentially break free of.

This is the limit of my political horizon? What are you talking about, there aren’t any centrists in this discussion. I supported Bernie, and then the anti-police Black Lives Matter protests this summer. Maybe you didn’t know that, but I made my politics explicit a couple of pages back in what the Left should do. You’re seriously in denial by leaving out convenient points. — Saphsin

Great, wonderful, what do you want, praise? You're still dirty, you're compromised , and everything is still awful, and will remain awful even if Biden wins. There are no clean hands, and we're all flith. This is not personal. This is structural flith.

It's curious that criticism of Biden is met with a chorous of "yes but here's why I'm going to vote for him". It's like people need to assurage their guilty consciences. Like Freud's dude on the couch who feels the need to proclaim that the dream is definately NOT about his mother.

I responded that way because you gave me that political horizon crap.

Look, I don’t know what this meta-filth is, I don’t see what it adds to political analysis and strategic decisions we make every week. There are available choices that have different political effects, and what you do on voting day is one of them, what you do the following day or week or month is another, and you’re saying that you don’t like them and talking about these notions seem to make you very passionate, but frankly beyond my obviously shared sense of disgust and dissatisfaction with the situation, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I talk with many people about politics and this is one of the most confusingly framed discussions.

It is more advantageous to activists and causes less suffering for civilians if we move ourselves to a situation where we fight against Biden instead Trump. That’s it, obviously we do that in combination with many things like all processes in life. You can sit around moping and meta-analyzing about some responsibility that gets tied in with voting that I can’t understand or don’t see reason to care for talking about anymore. I discuss these details to assuage my guilt? What a bizarre train of thought to arise, not everyone thinks like this unless they’re obsessed with satisfying their sense of identity.

The excessive military presence around the world.
A burgeoning police-state. The corporate corruption of the political process. The gradual erosion of constitutional rights. — Merkwurdichliebe

These are reasonable concerns, but "shining a light" on them will not get a majority to agree these are problems, much less agree on how to solve them.

These are reasonable concerns, but "shining a light" on them will not get a majority to agree these are problems, much less agree on how to solve them. — Relativist

You are probably correct. Nevertheless, it is as though those issues are hiding in plain sight. Everybody knows about them and can see what's happening, but we never hear anything substantial about it from our leaders. Until it becomes a concern for them, for instance if it affects their chances to be elected, we will never see any attempt at a solution to the big issues.

I'm just glad I live in NYC where my vote in the general means nothing.

@Hanover If you really care about "transparancy" what about Trump's recorded instances of obstruction of justice in the Müller report? Shouldn't proven cases carry much more weight than an alleged case concerning Biden? Which case has actually been warned by the intelligence community to be Russian interference and already refuted by Senate Republicans as Michael pointed out.

The fact an otherwise discerning poster is fooled believing again in Russian meddling talking points just goes to show how far the information apocalypse is along. (look it up). And it's getting worse. May I suggest you change your search engine to duckduckgo and your browser to Brave and delete Facebook, Instagram and Twitter? Or any other social media for that matter? Stop browsing YouTube and instead approach videos via duckduckgo. That goes a long way to avoid the rabbit holes of conspiracies those companies will serve up, whether right or left wing, just to have you click on the next link.

The excessive military presence around the world.
A burgeoning police-state. The corporate corruption of the political process. The gradual erosion of constitutional rights. — Merkwurdichliebe

I would add upholding a fraudulent bubble economy, which doesn't create much else than asset inflation that deepens the divide between the rich and others. And benefits the financial sector.

I'm not concerned with racism, xenophobia, self-righteousness, pettiness, and intolerance. Those are mere symptoms based in the frustration over the seeming futility of enacting true change. — Merkwurdichliebe

But those are great issues to focus on during an exceptionally bad economic downturn that people somehow still think will go away once the pandemic is gone.

I think of our predicament like an animal trapped in a cage trying to break free, doing whatever it can to break free. But it cannot find the bars of the cage, so it creates an imaginary cage with imaginary bars that can be readily found, thus it can have something to potentially break free of. — Merkwurdichliebe

Does the animal want to find the bars of the cage or really think how the cage is built?

If the basic problem is a corrupt two-party system, it simply will not go away by voting the two-party system once again into office. How intelligent people do not understand that the way to control people is to divide them is beyond me. So go off and hate each other. Just look at this forum on how the media narrative has an effect on what people here talk about. As if it's Nazi time / Commie time if you don't go and vote your side of the duopoly.

The worst end result is that people then don't believe in democracy or the values that the country was built upon.

What else is there to say? If that's enough a reason to not vote for him (given my previous clarifications that Biden isn't responsible for what the media does or doesn't do, that the Senate found the Ukraine conspiracy to be unfounded, and that the story in the New York Post seems to be lacking credibility even to themselves and Fox News) then I think you're just looking for an excuse to not vote for him, rather than admit to whatever your real reason is. — Michael

You're awful dismissive of Hunter Biden's involvement with an organization that the Obama administration and the EU believed to be corrupt, so much so that they were willing to interfere in the Ukrainian elections process and demand that he be fired. Do you truly believe that Hunter's involvement had nothing to do with Joe and that Joe didn't financially benefit in any way?

Suppose Donald Jr. did what Hunter did? No big deal?

EU pressured firing of Shokin, not the Burisma organisation. Burisma was/is under investigations of things that happened before Hunter Biden was part of the board. You're confusing facts.

If you really care about "transparancy" what about Trump's recorded instances of obstruction of justice in the Müller report? Shouldn't proven cases carry much more weight than an alleged case concerning Biden? Which case has actually been warned by the intelligence community to be Russian interference and already refuted by Senate Republicans as Michael pointed out. — Benkei

If I'm inconsistent in my treatment of Trump versus Biden, that just means I'm hypocritical, not that I'm wrong. Regardless, maybe Biden nor Trump are deserving of the presidency, which actually really is where I do think things fall.

What Michael pointed out was that the Ukrainians were found not to have tried to interfere in the US elections which conflates the issue at hand. I'm not trotting out that old argument, but I'm just pointing out that there has been some incriminating evidence presented by the Washington Post pointing to some corruption between Joe, Hunter, and the Ukraine which I think deserves more attention than it's getting. As I also noted to Michael, how would the left respond if Donald Jr. did this or if somehow Trump orchestrated that the issue be muted by the major social media outlets.

IMO, Trump has shined a light on some of the big issues in our society — Relativist

I give him credit for educating me regarding how many, gotta say it, stupid people we have in America. Yea, I already knew that intellectually, but I didn't really get it until Trump. Given that I'm 68 I should have gotten it long ago, but um, I guess I'm one of the stupid people.

But wait, I have a lame excuse! I've spent my entire adult life in a college town, and so fell in to the dream of thinking this is what life in general is like, when really it's just a very small sample of what life is like.

But really, no one should need Trump to teach them about stupid people. All you need to do is get in your car and drive a few miles. 80% of your fellow drivers will tailgate you, one of the stupidest acts a person can commit.

Well, anyway, thanks to Trump I'm slightly less stupid than I used to be.