Look, I get it, people need a bit of warming affirmation for the fact that they're voting for a dude covered in blood and stench of drone death — StreetlightX

Perhaps you could make a careful, reasoned, hopefully somewhat objective case for what you see to be Biden's crimes? Apologies if I've missed that above, very long thread. Time for a dedicated Biden thread too?

Perhaps it helps to note that all politicians, especially national leaders, have to deal with the world the way it actually is, not the way it should be. At best they can hope to nudge the world a bit towards what should be, but given the persistently perilous state of the human condition even that is quite ambitious. Avoiding chaos should probably be considered success.

My challenge to Biden would be the highly predictable remark that he's somehow managed to get through an entire presidential campaign without saying anything at all interesting about nuclear weapons, or barely anything at all.

Even looked at through a purely political lens, this failure seems an act of inexcusable political strategy insanity to me. The clown currently in the White House is widely considered, even by many of his supporters, to be unpredictable, unreliable, impulsive, uninformed on many important topics etc. And the Democratic Party can't figure out how to tie these well known personality traits to Trump's almost exclusive control of the nuclear arsenal???

I listen to NPR pretty much all day long, and I can't at the moment recall Biden making this point even once. Hopefully I'm wrong about that.

If we've learned anything from this campaign it might be that we're all totally nutzo, incapable of reason, frigging out of our looney tunes little minds. Not a pretty picture, but it's either that or back in to the dream.

Personally I don't believe in sin or the necessity of shame or essentialist nature of actions or anything like that. I'm a virtue consequentialist, and I adapt my moral actions to what's most effective for myself and their predictable effects on others in the world. — Saphsin

Frankly the left could learn some lessons from the evangelists, given that the Christian crazies have far more sway and power than these so-called 'effective' left actions.

If I’m pushing a button that chooses which President I want to fight, then that’s what I’m doing. Not endorsement. Your shouting doesn’t change the intent or nature of the action. — Saphsin

Dress it up all you like. What you 'intend' is irrelevant. People measure political time in the States in presidencies and movements, and the latter doesn't exist and the former is a neoliberal shitsthick who you make excuses for while putting an oh-so-convenient distance between. If the left doesn't get that it may as well have been in the same room that Biden felt-up Tara Rede in, or nodded as Biden locked millions of students and blacks into poverty and stochastic early death, or gave him the pen as he let communities in the Middle East be ripped apart by bombs on the behalf of oil barons and agriculturalists - because what, it makes you feel icky? - then the left doesn't deserve its name.

Frankly the left could learn some lessons from the evangelists, given that the Christian crazies have far more sway and power than these so-called 'effective' left actions. — StreetlightX

Yeah but that's not what we were talking about.

Dress it up all you like. What you 'intend' is irrelevant.

I only brought it up because you were ranting about endorsement, which is intention-riddled. Intentions are pretty irrelevant, what matters are the cold-predictable effects of the actions, not some perceived inherent attribute to them. And you don't care about those, it's all emotional for you.

And you don't care about those, it's all emotional for you. — Saphsin

I care about the fact that you think you get to pick and choose what matters at your convenience.

Yeah I do selectively choose to care about visible consequences and human lives instead of the things you're spouting about.

Yeah, the immiseration and effective murder of millions. Just things I'm 'spouting about'. No biggies.

Pragmatism vs principle. Hardly as uncontroversial as cutting your arm off to avoid dying. — Baden

Isn't the first principle of life to try and survive?

And that's what I was talking about limiting in terms of calculations, and you bring in everything else.

Yeah, the immiseration and effective murder of millions. Just things I'm 'spouting about'. No biggies. — StreetlightX

Strength is brutal and weakness breeds chaos. What's the way out?

Yeah, the immiseration and effective murder of millions. Just things I'm 'spouting about'. No biggies. — StreetlightX

As a mod could you perhaps lead by example and start a thread which explains your issues with Biden in a detailed, reasoned, and at least somewhat objective manner? You know, minus the clever snarky superiority poses and such as example. So far it seems you're just spouting emotional slogans, and that is indeed no biggie.

It appears we may soon be handing Biden something like 1500 massive hydrogen bombs, plenty enough to utterly destroy Western civilization at the least. So if any of us have well documented claims which should cause us to question Biden's morality or judgement, it seems entirely appropriate to bring them forth, put them on the table, and subject them to reasoned review.

I think we've all been gratified to see that he wasnt bright enough to pull off what he seemed to want to.

So yay for whistleblowers.

Yeah, the prognosticators who predicted a future dictator that never arrived. It’s a good little racket. You can keep predicting fascism, and when it never arrives, you can say your slander helped keep it at bay instead of admitting you were wrong about everything.

Giuliani brought Hunter’s laptop to the Delaware police, citing illegal images. I wonder if he picked up a girl-sniffing habit from ol’ pop?

My bad. You're right; I'm wrong. I misread, not a good thing. Apparently you're going to vote but for someone other than Biden. Mmm. That's even worse. It would seem that while I misread your post, you have not understood the argument in mine. Bottom line is that your duty requires you a) to vote, b) to vote for whom you think is the best candidate, and c) to be at least a somewhat well-informed voter, even if that just means knowing the break-even price of soy beans in Iowa. And I would add to that "best viable candidate." If you think Trump is the best candidate, by all means vote for him. But be good enough to grace us with your reasons for thinking he is the best candidate.

Or join the numbers of people who, in voting, cannot be doing their duty because they do not have a clue as to what their duty is. I referred earlier to pulling your own oar. I think most folks understand without being told that rowing is more than just yanking on an oar. Do you? .

Out of curiosity, what do you believe to be the biggest challenges in the short (1-2 years), middle (3 to 10) and long term (10+) for the US? What policies do you think are needed for that and what are the Democratic and Republican proposals there? If you're on the fence on who of the two candidates are personally worse, then what about policy? — Benkei

I was just watching the new movie documenting the Chicago 7, dealing with 7 college aged kids protesting the Vietnam war who ended up being charged with federal charges of inciting a riot. I take comfort in the fact that things have been worse in our country in terms of discord, but less comfort in knowing that we seem doomed to repeat this history over and over.

So, to your questions, I think the biggest challenges to this country deal with e pluribus unum, which make this country great and a leader in so many areas, but also provides a massive challenge, where we continuously have to remind everyone that their allegiance ought be to the common good and not the various tribes that make us up.. It's for that reason I support the showings of American patriotism you likely find nauseating. Some simple shared ideology and ritualistic practice is required to keep this merry group of folks working together. Maybe it's stupid we all must stand for the national anthem, but up until now maybe it might've been the most central thing we had in common, but I digress.

We need to treat people fairly and equally. We do that by trying. We're not trying. We need some leader who actually tries to bridge gaps. Trump is horrible at bringing people together, but the Dems are no better. Schumer had to have a stern talk with Feinstein for making a positive comment about the Court confirmation hearings and having hugged Graham. If you're civil to the other side, you get chastised and demoted within the party.

Those are the biggest challenges. We need leadership who can at least present the message that we're all in this together. In my local elections, the Republicans are against the expansion of heavy rail subways into my county, but the Democrats are for it. For some reason building roads is Republican but not laying tracks. The distinctions between the parties are not based upon any real principle as far as I can see. If Trump supports it, it's Republican. If Pelosi supports it, it's Democratic. Surely someone can just say this and get someone to listen.

Maybe I answered your questions, I don't know. I could just say healthcare or something like that, but that's just symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Here's the thing, I can understand a principled stand against voting for anyone (e.g. deal-breaking character traits). Flip the narrative and imagine Trump up against an even worse candidate than him if it helps to understand this. I also understand the pragmatic pov (how relatively fucked the country is likely to end up under a given candidate). So, overall, it's consistency that I respect. Plant your flag, defend it, and be prepared to accept the consequences. I'm not about to lecture anyone on anything other than that.

where we continuously have to remind everyone that their allegiance ought be to the common good and not the various tribes that make us up — Hanover

I recently heard an analysis of the pandemic around the world which claimed that it is the societies with the most allegiance to the common good that are doing the best. As evidence, apparently they are doing much better in Africa than expected, and much worse in America than expected. According to the theory, it's not technology and money that makes the difference, but social cohesion.

If that's true, and if Biden wins, the next step would seem to be for we lefties to reach out to Trump's base. Listen, show respect, seek areas of common agreement. Here's one example.

The population of the United States has doubled in my lifetime. The population of Florida has grown 7X, if my memory is working. It's not unreasonable for us to question how much farther in this direction we wish to go. It's not unreasonable to wish to live in a country with enforceable borders.

It's for that reason I support the showings of American patriotism you likely find nauseating — Hanover

So, I presume you won't vote for the guy who used his privilege to fake an injury and dodge Vietnam and then referred to those who did sacrifice themselves for the flag as suckers and losers (in John McCain's case, on camera)? Hard to think of anything less patriotic than that.

At what point does this kind of logic lead one to preferring Gobbels because he's not a Hitler? Or a Beria because he's not a Stalin? At what point does the boiled frog think, well, it's just one more degree rather than five, and that's a pretty substantive difference so despite the fact that I'm boiling to death, well, I'll take what I can get? — StreetlightX

Solved all of the problems under the Southern Cross, have we? Or are you feeling that Australian heat which probably should be and is a little hotter than elsewhere? Solutions are a matter of focus and not absolute magnification. Too far or too near and you cannot see what you are looking at, and the logic of the defective view is wrong when, if ever, the right focus is achieved.

Biden such a horror? I do not think so. Or, what do you know? Beyond invective and rant, that is. I get it. You're an outsider and you do not like the show. Perfectly all right. But most of your comments strongly suggest that you do not understand the show. At this moment it's a variety of Hobson's choice. It is that simple. And small point: your metaphor presupposes the frog has options that are cooler. And it strikes me that most communities most of the time are always already in the coolest situation they can manage. So, wrong metaphor. Maybe you would just like to autoclave the world. Stay tuned, could happen.

I think the most important issue is transitioning to clean energy and devising strategies for survival in a more volatile climate. We're likely to have climate refugees sometime in this century.

Is everyone in Trump's circle a predator? Rudy's surely fucked... https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/oct/21/rudy-giuliani-faces-questions-after-compromising-scene-in-new-borat-film

I think one of my favourite things I've seen said about Trump is that if he really wanted to lock Hillary up, he should have just hired her.

He also had a copy of the hard drive from "Hunter's" laptop, allegedly containing sexual pictures of children – despite the FBI already having a copy. Possession of child pornography?

Damn. A consensual act with a 25 year old woman? How could you do this, Rudy?

When you die, nos4, I hope you go to your own special heaven, ruled by just and exactly those you defend so fervently here. You'd like that, I think. If nothing else you'd have so much more to defend, and so much more reason to defend it. Purpose on earth, purpose cubed in your "heaven."

I think you misspelled "Hell" there.

I’m glad I can make an appearance in your hopes and dreams, Tim. But these sorts of hopes are compelling you to vote for the same neoliberal politician who brought us the Iraq war, gave us the largest crime bill in US history, and compromised with segregationists.

Damn. A consensual act with a 25 year old woman? How could you do this, Rudy? — NOS4A2

Yeah, I mean it's not like anyone was impeached for that or anything...

I can't wait for the GOP to go back to complaining about that kind of stuff the minute the democrats get into power.

Damn. A consensual act with a 25 year old woman? How could you do this, Rudy? — NOS4A2

In what sense is rubbing your genitals in front of what you believe to be a journalist consensual?

Who impeaches a private citizen?

From your article:

“ Although unfortunate, the circumstances of the setup appear consensual, with Giuliani led to believe he was being courted.”