Imo, the American electorate is about to spit up Trump and his like a gigantic hairball. Justice will then clean up the mess. I wonder if you'll disappear then.

Um I said Benghazi, not a "mob of murderous rioters" but I suppose the death count from both is similar. Indeed it's foolish to compare these events to COVID since the US death toll from that is way way worse, but for some reason the right gets all up in arms about one but not the other.

I’m under no delusion that Trump could lose. If the polls are any indication (they aren’t), it’s not looking good. But I’ve been pleasantly surprised before.



The Benghazi attack, where terrorists and a violent mob of rioters killed Americans, and where cries for assistance were met with a hand wave. I wager they would still be alive had Trump been in charge.

Antifa violence and fear thereof are simply not grounded in reality. — Benkei

So true. Literally just a scapegoat to distract, textbook fascism.

All I really want to know is whether you support the assault on Andy Ngo.

Of course rolling stones isn't going to like a conservative reporter/journalist. Who would have thought a heavily left wing publication would dislike a conservative reporter/journalist/hack etc.? If I were to reference the National Review how do you think they would view Ngo? How do you think conservative sites view Seth Abramson or Sam Seder? It's a constant thing coming from both sides to try to discredit the other. I'm not going to blindly bandwagon one side here. I don't even care about defending Ngo's journalistic integrity right now. It's irrelevant.

This is why I hate politics and I prefer philosophy. All I want to ask you is whether you condone the assault. It doesn't even matter if he's a legitimate journalist or not. If someone spreads lies and publishes them then you sue them. If you watch the videos he's attacked by many black clad men and the crowd really doesn't stop them. There's also been a number of assaults on other conservative journalists like the youtube channel "the colored conservatives" by men clad in black.

How do you think I would react if, say, the proud boys assaulted a liberal journalist? Do you think I would immediately jump to their defense by trying to discredit the liberal journalist? Shitty behavior is shitty behavior it doesn't matter what side it comes from. This shouldn't be political.

Antifa violence and fear thereof are simply not grounded in reality. — Benkei

I never said antifa started the forest fires. What I am aware of is tons of footage on youtube of black clad men either assualting journalists or looting/burning stores.

I never said antifa started the forest fires. What I am aware of is tons of footage on youtube of black clad men either assualting journalists or looting/burning stores — BitconnectCarlos

If that is all you're aware of, aren't you making the assumption that they are Antifa? If you don't know either way then mighten they not be a false flag? Hypothetically.

The thing that bothers me is that many are jumping to conclusions prior to police investigations being finished and are conjecturing all sorts. On both sides really. For all you or I know, there are personal disputes or normal crimes being labeled as Antifa or Right wing extremists.

Are you of the opinion that neo-nazis don't exist in the USA? Sincerely asking.

Since we are talking about killings, what did you think about the killing of BLM activist Oluwatoyin Salau?

If that is all you're aware of, aren't you making the assumption that they are Antifa? If you don't know either way then mighten they not be a false flag? — MSC

What an excellent display of critical reasoning.

If that is all you're aware of, aren't you making the assumption that they are Antifa? If you don't know either way then mighten they not be a false flag? Hypothetically. — MSC

True, you never know for sure. We've seen protests and lootings and burnings across the country and only some the perpetrators have been identified as ANTIFA. I certainly don't think everyone who is committing crimes here are antifa. It's nearly impossible to get perfect statistics about this, but it's likely a mix of antifa, other left wing radicals, opportunists, criminals, and who knows what else. I'm happy to extend my argument here to left wing radicals in general. If there are right wing radicals in there I'd be quick to condemn them too obviously. I certainly don't buy that the majority of people committing the lootings and riots are really right wing radicals though.

The thing that bothers me is that many are jumping to conclusions prior to police investigations being finished and are conjecturing all sorts. On both sides really. For all you or I know, there are personal disputes or normal crimes being labeled as Antifa or Right wing extremists. — MSC

Absolutely. All we know is that antifa members have been identified behind some of the looting and assaults, but there's certainly a lot of confusion.

Are you of the opinion that neo-nazis don't exist in the USA? Sincerely asking. — MSC

No I belive neo-nazis exist in some measure in the US. It's important to distinguish neo-nazis from just normal racists and neo-confederates though. All racists are not the same. Don't get me wrong, I hate racists - I do believe neo-Nazis exist in some quantity (certainly in the prison system) but all racists are not equal. Actual neo-nazis are the worst of the worst in my book.

Since we are talking about killings, what did you think about the killing of BLM activist Oluwatoyin Salau? — MSC

I would have to look into that one and get back to you later. Yesterday I was looking to Breonna Taylor (horrific what happened) and Jacob Blake, but I'll get to Salau at some point. I have no problem condemning police officers when they commit like an actual crime as is what likely happened with Taylor. It's certainly happened we really just need to wait for all the facts before rushing to judgment.

Thank you, I think? Sarcasm or sincere? Always hard to tell in writing.

Quite sincere. :smile:

Well thank you! I just got lucky though, I read his response three times before I noticed there was an assumption.

Well thank you! I just got lucky though, I read his response three times before I noticed there was an assumption. — MSC

No, that's not luck. You read it multiple times in a critical fashion. Bravo. If only we could get more critical thinking into the world.

No, that's not luck. You read it multiple times in a critical fashion. Bravo. If only we could get more critical thinking into the world. — JerseyFlight

Agreed. I wish it was a heavier focus in schools. Philosophy should be part of the core curriculum. I've never been to University though and I dropped out of highschool.

True, you never know for sure. We've seen protests and lootings and burnings across the country and only some the perpetrators have been identified as ANTIFA. — BitconnectCarlos

One of the things you mentioned, protests, isn't a problem and by law the people have a right to protest. The majority of the protests have indeed been peaceful. This brings me to another point, ANTIFA is an ideology, a statement you and I have both agreed with. So individuals who identify as ANTIFA, are not members of a group but are individuals espousing a belief in an ideology.

Pro-Life is also an Ideology. Do you think every pro-lifer spends their time outside of abortion clinics shouting profanities at employees and scared women seeking abortions? I'm Pro-Life, but I don't do that. I also identify as ANTIFA (Now don't rush to judge or throw the baby out with the bathwater because what I have to say is monumentally important and it would benefit you and everyone on all sides of all ideological debates to hear it) but I am not out Looting or burning or assaulting anyone and even if Trump wins a second term, I still probably won't be doing any of that. I'm human and I've been angry at times and when we get angry we think of doing stupid things, sometimes we do those stupid things to different degrees. I wouldn't judge you in the slightest if you told me that the thought hadn't crossed your mind to go out and assault people you see protesting. We all have those kinds of thoughts from time to time, especially about the things that mean a lot to us.

Why is this? Because the modal quality of my ANTIFA ideology and my Pro-life Ideology are personal and based on my individuality, just like ANTIFA who are out on the streets looting and burning, and the ones PEACEFULLY protesting... Or, like you. In the last few messages to me you have expressed ANTIFA ideology, yet you're not out looting and burning either. Instead you are having a collaborative, open, equal, equitable and honest conversation on the internet with people who disagree with you. On a philosophy forum no less. You might say that the Modal quality of our ANTIFA beliefs are like a super hard Titanium alloy, while the looters and burners are but lithium, a soft metal.

The Benghazi attack, where terrorists and a violent mob of rioters killed Americans, and where cries for assistance were met with a hand wave. — NOS4A2

Oh I thought you were referring to the protests that's happening right now, since that for some reason is so much more of a concern for you folks instead of the 200K dead.

I wager they would still be alive had Trump been in charge. — NOS4A2

And I'd wager that 100K+ people would still be alive today if Trump weren't in charge. Your point?

I've already answered what I thought about Ngo being hit. It's in my previous post.

My problem with your comments was, that you claim multiple journalists were assaulted by Antifa. I haven't seen one example of it and the one you did give is a bad example for various reasons. Meanwhile, there was a lot of footage of journalists being assaulted by police in the beginning of the BLM protests.

I never said antifa started the forest fires. What I am aware of is tons of footage on youtube of black clad men either assualting journalists or looting/burning stores. — BitconnectCarlos

This makes me think you didn't read the WaPo article I shared a few posts back. I wasn't talking about the forest fires to begin with until my last post. From that article:

Oren Segal, vice president of the Center on Extremism at ADL, emphasized, “It’s a challenge [to identify antifa] because this is not an organized group. You’re essentially looking to try to identify what does somebody believe in.” Antifa has been identified by patches, flags, graffiti and black clothing, Segal explained. And at times, they can be identifiable by moving in “black bloc” formation. But, Segal hedged, looking to identify antifa by these visual cues is “not foolproof.”

Jones reviewed protests in more than 140 cities and spoke with U.S. officials within the joint terrorism task force. Most of the violence, Jones said, was committed by “local hooligans, sometimes gangs, sometimes just individuals that are trying to take advantage of an opportunity.”

“There were reports of some antifa at different protests,” he concluded. “But they stood back, did not engage, certainly not in a violent way.”

Officials have arrested more than 14,000 people across 49 cities nationwide since May 27, according to a Washington Post tally of data provided by police departments and included in media reports. Thousands were arrested for low-level offenses, including curfew violations and failure to disperse.

Roughly 80 federal charges, including murder and throwing molotov cocktails at police vehicles, reveal no evidence of an antifa plot. Four people who identify with the far-right extremist “boogaloo” movement are among those facing the most serious federal charges. — WaPo

Your identification of people being clad in black being part of Antifa is problematic because likely to be wrong.

You also dismiss Rolling Stone as left-leaning but it's actually a reasonable article. And even if it is influenced by left leaning politics; there are plenty of facts in the article you can try to independently verify. I did that when you started about Andy Ngo because I had no clue who you were talking about. I spent about 30 minutes on that.

With real partisan talking points; once you scratch the surface most of it turns out to be untrue. Andy Ngo does not deserve to milk this situation and he certainly shouldn't be lying about his injuries. The guy that hit him should be fined. The rest is just milkshakes and spaghetti spray which a provocateur and probable criminal like Ngo deserved.

So, once again: the FBI is clear on Antifa not being a problem. It's not an organisation. Some people identifying as Antifa are suspects in violent crimes. Nevertheless, anti-government movements and white supremacists are much more likely to radicalise and commit violent crimes. Recent events provide no evidence of a violent ideology underlying Antifa or violence perpetrated by people identifying Antifa in such a widespread manner that there is cause for concern.

You can also look at Wray's testimony form 3-4 days ago. The interesting part is how he won't commit to a lef or right wing domestic threat and points to two things in particular: lone wolfs with access to weapons and racially motivated violence (e.g. white supremacism) as the main sources of domestic terrorism. While it's true that some lone wolfs may identify as Antifa, it is not the case that Antifa falls within either category the FBI is really worried about.

Nice identity politics too.

See - you're the lesson. You just speak, and all this hilarious shit comes tumbling out. — StreetlightX

I did baulk at that one. One doesn't expect racism on a philosophy forum to be quite so overt as 'If you think white people have been bad to black people, you must be black'.

No, I found it strange how you only mentioned black people being killed by police on numerous occasions despite more white people being killed by cops and there being no mention of any other race. I couldn't tell if you're just a black person concerned with issues within the black community (understandable) or some random white guy/non-black who's basically just virtue-signaling by only taking notice of one politically salient race. It comes across as very bizarre and in any case you just continue to straw manning my positions so I'm out.

The identity politics is strong with this one. :snicker:

No, I found it strange how you only mentioned black people being killed by police on numerous occasions despite more white people being killed by cops and there being no mention of any other race. — BitconnectCarlos

Again, recognising no difference between lawful and inevitable killing and utterly unnecessarily murder. My issue is not that police kill. It is that police particularly murder black people.

I couldn't tell if you're just a black person concerned with issues within the black community (understandable) or some random white guy/non-black who's basically just virtue-signaling by only taking notice of one politically salient race. — BitconnectCarlos

And that's very telling. You can understand why a black person would be enraged by police brutality against black people -- an agreement that the problem exists. You can't understand why a white person would find this abominable, and can only assume they are virtue signalling. That is a fundamentally racist interpretative schema that assumes that other white people like yourself would similarly not care about racism. I can assure you -- and I can't imagine you have not been privy to much evidence -- that decent, non-racist, non-fascist white people are very much outraged by unjustifiable and particular police violence against black communities.

Just substitute the word Commy for antifa. Those damn Commies coming out of the woodwork.

It's interesting drawing the comparisons with the UK, the right wing is following the same path, but is a few months behind and the society is not quite so fractured. So it is easier to distinguish the ideology and people who have drunk the cool aid. Because the people who haven't are just normal folk, who are a bit bemused with all these people loosing touch with reality and spouting such nonsense. Their ring leaders are right now trying to paint the Black lives Matter movement in the UK as some kind of antifa organisation. I doubt it will stick though, because everyone knows there is no such animal and the fools who fall for it will become more and more exposed for the fools they are.

Again, recognising no difference between lawful and inevitable killing and utterly unnecessarily murder. My issue is not that police kill. It is that police particularly murder black people. — Kenosha Kid

It's nearly impossible if not outright impossible to find stats on this. You've got some work to do if you're going to make this case.

And that's very telling. — Kenosha Kid

Jesus christ you are hyper-sensitive regarding a normal use of language.

and I can't imagine you have not been privy to much evidence -- that decent, non-racist, non-fascist white people are very much outraged by unjustifiable and particular police violence against black communities. — Kenosha Kid

Again, you need to find the statistics which prove that cops are just randomly murdering black people -- and only black people -- for no apparent reason/no apparent cause -- simply because they are black. And not only does this happen, but that this happens at an extremely high rate.

It is only against black people too - not any other race.

EDIT: The cops shoot around 1k people a year, the vast majority of whom are armed.

According to stats this year regarding unarmed victims:

"As of the June 22 update, the Washington Post’s database of fatal police shootings showed 14 unarmed Black victims and 25 unarmed white victims in 2019. The database does not include those killed by other means, like George Floyd."

You have more optimism than me regarding the mental acuity of Americans.

Exhibit A, above.

It's wrong to throw milkshakes at people. Australian Eggboy, also wrong.

"As of the June 22 update, the Washington Post’s database of fatal police shootings showed 14 unarmed Black victims and 25 unarmed white victims in 2019. — BitconnectCarlos

Ah, so unarmed black Americans get murdered by cops at 3 times the rate of unarmed white Americans, adjusted for population.

Cool and normal.

Don't insult our national hero, scumbag.

Sorry, all cool Australian things are immediately adopted by Americans as American.

To America's credit, at least some of them deal with Nazi's the correct way:

:up: