No, I think that's wrong. The widely known fact that dogs don't see colours as we do does not put a dent into anyone's conception of perception. — jamalrob
That's a surprise. I seem to remember having pretty much the same debate with him since I joined the old forum. — jamalrob
Maybe. — jamalrob
(Direct realism) The properties of perceptual content of a perceptual event are identical with those of what the perceptual event is directed towards..
(Indirect Realism) The properties of perceptual content of a perceptual event are not-identical with those of what the perceptual event is directed towards. — fdrake
would anyone demand that to be direct, the table-top would have to project a rectangular shape on to the retina? Is there actually a naive position that is somehow corrected by the idea that perception happens from a perspective and in a certain way? — jamalrob
I think, I hope, i don't have to be claiming that the blind man's world is made of stick vibrations. Merely that the world he detects is the world, and not a representation of the world. — unenlightened
If someone took up the kerb and replaced it with a pile of books of similar size and shape, the blind man's conception of the object he detected would be indistinguishable from the concrete kerb. — Isaac
If "the world he detects is the world, and not a representation of the world" what would the counterfactual be. Take your claim to be false, what would be the case to show that it was false? — Isaac
No one is saying that perception is not initiated by signals from the outside world. — Isaac
think you underestimate the subtly of what a stick user can detect, and the vibration of stick on book, stick on concrete, and stick on stone are very different. — unenlightened
Well if the blind man or the bat could pass through barriers that I could not or vice versa, that would be evidence that we were detecting different worlds, possibly. — unenlightened
at least some of the time, that is exactly the argument; that we cannot tell the difference between a dream and reality. — unenlightened
Is the blind man's perception direct or not? Is it direct if he uses his hands with no stick? This is where I want an answer. Is touch direct perception? At what length of stick or fingernail does it become indirect? — unenlightened
What in general intervenes between world and experiencer to make experience indirect? — unenlightened
the question then is how that representation is perceived. — unenlightened
perceive the representation, or do I merely perceive a representation of the representation? — unenlightened
Why is it less problematic to perceive a representation of the world than to perceive the world? — unenlightened
But to have a perception of an object which is modified in some way (and even fabricated to some extent) from the real-world source of the sensations which precipitated the perception, is most definitely 'indirect'. — Isaac
I think you go wrong here. What exactly is modified? Taking you at your word, you mean the perception is modified. I don't know what this means. The perception is the result of, or is constituted by, modifications of light, electrical impulses, and so on, but that doesn't say anything about a modification of perception or experience as such. Is there a raw, unmodified perception? — jamalrob
It means the perception is not a faithful mirror of the object, and therefore can't be direct. If we're not aware of objects as they are, then we don't have direct awareness. That's the point. — Marchesk
Why would you expect direct perception to produce faithful reflections? — jamalrob
That's so far from my position I'm not sure how to address it. — jamalrob
Because you're not a direct realist. I don't know why you defend it. — Marchesk
So what exactly is the distinction the indirect realist is supposed to be making that the direct realist wants to deny? That's what I'm still not getting here? — Isaac
I think the article is quite clear on that. It's a way of thinking about things that does a horrible injustice to the way we perceive the world. — jamalrob
at least some of the time, that is exactly the argument; that we cannot tell the difference between a dream and reality.
— unenlightened
Schizophrenics cannot tell the difference. Unless you're excluding them from 'we' then there is such a case. Which means examining how we make such distinctions is a worthwhile endeavour. — Isaac
What exactly is modified? — jamalrob
you mean the perception is modified. — jamalrob
The perception is the result of, or is constituted by, modifications of light, electrical impulses, and so on, but that doesn't say anything about a modification of perception or experience as such. — jamalrob
From what I recall of similar arguments in the past, the conversation always faltered over the meaning of "direct" and "realism". It would inevitably run aground on semantic disputes. — Marchesk
So now you're making the argument you just told me was a straw man. — unenlightened
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