Don't know. Part of isolationism is not caring until theres a need to nuke somebody. — frank

Is that their idea or ours? I mean is that where we are headed? Pulling out until there is a threat of a nuke?
Isn't NK's objective to develop a delivery system to be able to nuke it's neighbors?

Tiff this is a very silly question you are asking. As the current situation stands, pulling troops out at this time will be (is) devastating to our allies, so I would simply not pull out at this time.

By enabling a literal military invasion? Sorry Tiff, this is too stupid. — StreetlightX

I appreciate your suggestion that my understanding is lacking, as opposed to suggesting that I see death as a game, for that is not who I am.

How do we not enable a military invasion?

In some sense I hope and pray that there are soldiers on the field that will refuse to "stand down" in the same way I wish there would have been support for our Ambassador in Benghazi, from soldiers who were stationed close enough to offer air support, and would have refused to stand down. But my hope and prayers solve nothing.

The "problem" did not begin with this President, he is trying to solve the"problem".
So before we go any further, let us first establish that the drawdown is not the "problem" but rather an attempt to end a war. The "problem" shifts with each administration and this one is not immune to that process.

This particular withdrawal was to save the lives of American soldiers, to get them out of harms way, at least according to Mike Pompeo and officials at the pentagon. The spin about future alliances, soldiers feelings, and optics is all nonsense.

Tiff this is a very silly question you are asking. As the current situation stands, pulling troops out at this time will be (is) devastating to our allies, so I would simply not pull out at this time. — Maw

So you are okay with perpetual war? What is the solution Maw, when doing nothing is not an option ?

Not wanting to pull troops at this current time =/= wanting perpetual war

Tiff you're simply dreaming if you think this has anything to do with a larger American backdown. This is Trump being played by a foreign leader, and then appealing to the fantasy of an American backdown to justify it - and in turn leading dupes to think such a backdown has anything to do with it. The Americans fucking off from Saudi Arabia - the no.1 exporter to Wahabi Islam and origin of most of the 9/11 attackers - might actually count as a move worth calling a backdown. This is just a weak president playing people like you to justify a fatally bad decision, impulsively made. You owe yourself better than the fiddle you currently are.

Is that their idea or ours? I mean is that where we are headed? Pulling out until there is a threat of a nuke? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

It's uncharted waters, so America will do it the way we always do things: fall ass backwards into it. I think adjustments in wealth and power are on the horizon. It will unfold according to its own inner logic.

What bothers me is the way a few words from an American president can fuel a rebellion that ends up creating a cultural meltdown. I didn't understand that that could happen until Syria. That needs to change. The US and Europe have exported much of their culture to Asia, Africa, and the middle east, but we aren't going to export democracy. Trying to do that just creates disasters.

Somebody who understands that needs to take charge of global peace. I don't think that's ever going to be us. It's too much in our flesh and bones to believe that democracy is fundamentally right and anything else is violence against human nature. That's what I see, anyway.

Isn't NK's objective to develop a delivery system to be able to nuke it's neighbors? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I think NK's objective is to do whatever they have to do to maintain their own internal freak-out mode which supports their dictatorship. NK is China's problem.

Millions and millions of Kurds live in Turkey and call it their home. Turkey has not been kind to the Kurds, sure, but they are not the enemy in this battle, despite your propaganda. — NOS4A2

The target are Kurdish forces wishing to establish their own state.

The PKK is a terrorist organization, at least according to Turkey, NATO, the EU, the US, and UK. — NOS4A2

Yes. The YPG isn't though. Of course Turkey correctly identifies a strong Kurdish presence in the region as a threat. That doesn't mean the Kurds are entirely in the wrong either. In reality there are usually nuances.

It’s not so simple. I’m speaking about the current rebellion at the southern border.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish–Turkish_conflict_(2015–present) — NOS4A2

Which is nothing other than the continuation of a decades long struggle. It's indeed not so simple.

This is a far-left rebellion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_United_Revolutionary_Movement — NOS4A2

It's a nationalist movement. Left wing ideas have little to do with it. It just so happens that if grew out of left-wing militas.

This isn’t our conflict, and we cannot align with terrorist forces as they attack our ally. — NOS4A2

So, what about all the aligning the US did before Erdogan's call? Care to point out at which point YPG forces attacked Turkey?

The consequence of American soldiers being killed in this Turkey-PKK spat would be worse than Benghazi, with far worse geopolitical implications. — NOS4A2

But of course they wouldn't have been killed, because Turkey wouldn't have attacked.

The spin about future alliances, soldiers feelings, and optics is all nonsense. — NOS4A2

What about the possibility that what Pompeo says is nonsense?

Trump's actions clear show examples of things that many won't say, but are true:

1) The United States today is an unreliable ally that should not to be trusted.

Many Americans themselves believe in a fallacy that that foreigners are typically against them. Many of these Americans also go so far with their criticism of their own state and it's foreign policy that they don't see anything good in it and hence are open to quite blatant anti-US propaganda. Now criticism is healthy, but only up to a level, being overly critical isn't anymore realistic. To view US policy as only as this perpetual machine sucking resources to the military-industrial complex and nothing else is simply naive and ignorant. What is also evident is that many Americans simply either don't care or are totally ignorant about anything else than their domestic viewpoint, which creates a self-centered biased view of the World. As if there wouldn't be a good side to US involvement in World affairs. As if countries wouldn't create problems even without US involvement. This self centered viewpoint makes many Americans think that absolutely everything revolves around them and hence they lack the ability to understand that in the eyes of foreigners they are just one player in the big game. If the US as a superpower leaves, it simply creates a vacuum that will be filled by others. And this vacuum creates competition, which then can turn ugly. Is really Middle East divided by the Russian-Iranian alliance and the unholy Israeli-Saudi camp really better?

2) The United States lacks a coherent foreign policy and is open haphazard turnarounds.

This lack of long term planning and basically utter lack of understanding (or care about) that others have their own agendas creates an environment where the US just goes from bad to a worse situation, usually without total lack of understanding how it makes things worse. Prime example of this is it's old ally Pakistan, which the US has simply pushed into the arms of China. And US-Turkish relations can go the way of US-Pakistani relations. Turkey has demanded for years to make an own security area and it's NATO allies simply haven't given it the chance... until now. Will this improve US Turkish relations? Not likely: the Turkish military incursion will be condemned. This likely won't change even when Trump leaves the office as US domestic politics is such in a state of inflamed vitriol and inability.

3) President Trump is easily influenced and his poor leadership has consequences

This is most obvious from his decision to put a family member with absolutely no abilities to handle the situation, but just leave the door open for even more blatant corruption than before. But this isn't at all important for Trump supporters, of course. Someone might fantasize that when Trump cannot do much he won't create bigger problems, but long term consequences can be dramatic.

Trump is moving down Putin’s wish list, fulfilling the Kremlin’s aims at a rapid pace. He is chipping away at U.S. sanctions against Russia, deepening America’s internal divisions on the basis of race, faith, sexual orientation and political affiliation, vocally undermining confidence in our elections, intelligence agencies and institutions, all the while empowering our foreign adversaries and undermining NATO alliances.

Trump’s claims that Ukraine—not Russia— is somehow responsible for the 2016 election interference fall right in line with conspiracy theories the Kremlin has been propagating for years. The Russians have long been promoting the notions that prompted President Trump’s outrageous demands from the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, ultimately leading to the commencement of the impeachment proceedings.

The ousting of Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine, was also in line with the Kremlin’s wishes. She stood up for Ukraine’s interests, opposing Russia’s aggressive posture with respect to Donbas. Ukrainian politician Viktor Medvedchuk, a close ally of Russia's Vladimir Putin—who is the godfather of Medvedchuk’s daughter—has a longstanding grudge against Ambassador Yovanovitch. Medvedchuk cheered for the U.S. Ambassador to be recalled and the Russian state media predicted that Ambassador Yovanovitch would be Trump’s “first victim in Ukraine.”

Russia’s fingerprints seem to appear on every controversial foreign policy decision undertaken by President Trump. Prior to Turkey’s ongoing offensive against the Kurds, Turkish President Erdogan met with his Russian and Iranian counterparts, reaching "important decisions."

Trump's Syria Fiasco is part of Putin's To-Do List

And all the while, Trump supporters parrot on about 'patriotism' and 'America first'.

What bothers me is the way a few words from an American president can fuel a rebellion that ends up creating a cultural meltdown. — frank

that's because he considers himself, and behaves exactly like, a monarch rather than a constitutionally-appointed public official. And that is why it is imperative that he is removed from office.

Indeed...fascism and narcissism comes to mind too...

@ArguingWAristotleTiff:

"The desire to remove U.S. troops from Middle East wars is laudable, and shared by many of those criticizing Trump this week. But ... Trump’s announcement was less that he is bringing the troops home than that he is ordering those troops not to stand in the way as Turkey wipes out the Kurdish allies they have been working with to fight ISIS.

What Trump’s action did do was effectively blow up months of intensive negotiations to avert a Turkish offensive by establishing a safe zone that would be monitored by joint U.S.-Turkish patrols, between Kurdish-controlled territory and the border. The tentative deal reached in August required the Kurds to remove fortifications from the border, meaning that not only did the U.S. invite Turkey to attack its allies—it persuaded those allies to remove their own defenses before doing so.

...If Trump is serious about lessening U.S. military involvement in the Middle East, he has missed some clear opportunities. The president’s views on America’s role in Syria have focused entirely on military power. The idea that the U.S. could be exercising its influence with something other than bombs never seems to enter the calculation. The administration has shown little inclination to engage in a sustained way with diplomacy in Syria, effectively letting Russia, Iran, and Turkey take the lead.."

(cite)

And all the while, Trump supporters parrot on about 'patriotism' and 'America first'. — Wayfarer

This is the tragedy. A lot of Trump supporters think that President Trump, their shall we say God Emperor, is making great and welcome decisions against a 'wretched Washington bureaucracy' hell bent on retaining the status quo. He isn't. Let's take the Russia policy as a whole for starters.

Many Trump supporters start with the following idea:

I have nothing against Russia so the US shouldn't have anything against Russia, hence Trump is doing great by improving relations with Russia. And any criticism of this (Trump and Russia) is just the empty rant of the Democrats because they cannot admit that Trump won fair and square.

This attitude above clearly shows the blissful ignorance about a) Russia and it's agenda and b) the self-centeredness of Trump supporters, who typically think that everything is about US domestic politics. No other discourse can even exist!

First and foremost, current Russian leadership sees the US as an enemy. It also has to have the US as an enemy to justify the domestic political crackdown and for the reason for Putin to hold on to power. Russia's official military doctrine states as it's most pressing and largest military threat the actions of the United States, mainly the enlargement of the US lead alliance. Russian leadership wants Russia to be a Great Power and wants to have influence over other countries. If it can lure the US to withdraw from it's Superpower position, it can fill that void created by the US. It has no illusion that the US military has other ideas than Trump and with Democrats in power US foreign policy would return to normal. Russia does not think about international relations as like a normal country that "everybody would be better if we had warmer relations". It genuinely sees it as a competitive field where one's gain is another one's loss. It's insecurity is structural and deeply historical for the country. One should realize that this isn't just a response to US actions, but something also independent of US actions. A country lead by a KGB agent is different than a normal democracy.

But all of the above doesn't matter for the Trump supporter. Nope, for him (or her) it's the annoying democrats (desperately trying to get Trump impeached), it's the military industrial complex, the neocons and the Washington foreign policy blob that is the reason why Russia is acting as it is. If the US would change it's behaviour, Russia would naturally behave differently. Hence Trump is making great openings!!!

What bothers me is the way a few words from an American president can fuel a rebellion that ends up creating a cultural meltdown.
— frank

that's because he considers himself, and behaves exactly like, a monarch rather than a constitutionally-appointed public official. And that is why it is imperative that he is removed from office. — Wayfarer

I was talking about Obama.

Yeah well it’s the Trump thread.

The worst case scenario coming out of the impeachment inquiry is that Congress moves the Articles of Impeachment, but that the Senate acquits, and Trump goes on to win a second term. This will provide carte blanche for Trump to cast aside all pretense of being bound by the Constitution and to assume absolute power. I wouldn't have thought there was a chance of this happening, but considering the depth of the capitulation of the Republican Party to Trump's corruption it is a possibility. And if that were to happen then God help us.

This will provide carte blanche for Trump to cast aside all pretense of being bound by the Constitution and to assume absolute power — Wayfarer

Probably just tons more crazy tweets and a big fat recession.

The worst case scenario coming out of the impeachment inquiry is that Congress moves the Articles of Impeachment, but that the Senate acquits, and Trump goes on to win a second term... And if that were to happen then God help us. — Wayfarer

A scary scenario indeed. But not for those who would say it is God's Will.

until they realise where they really are.... :naughty:

Probably just tons more crazy tweets and a big fat recession. — frank

That will probably happen anyway. Win or lose.
Unfettered absolute power is something else altogether...

The thing we need to know about Trump’s psyche is that in his world, it’s impossible for him to be wrong or anything less than great. So whatever stress or anxiety he feels, it has to be a consequence of what the ‘evil others’ are doing. So when he says that Adam Schiff is corrupt and should be impeached, deep down that is actually something that he knows about himself but could never admit. So all the fury and rage that he projects is part of that deception and neurosis.

None of which would matter, if he wasn’t President.

What are these wild guesses about Trump's psyche supposed to accomplish?

Hey Benkei!

It speaks to whether he's fit for the office. I think the wolves are circling. He might be firing his attorney now since his associates just got busted for campaign violations, again.

What are these wild guesses about Trump's psyche supposed to accomplish? — Benkei

They're not guesses.

I always think he’s projecting. When he says, ‘She’s not the speaker of the House,’ what he really means is, ‘I shouldn’t be president of the United States. ’ When he says that Adam Schiff should resign, what he really means is, ‘I, Donald Trump, should resign.’ — Nancy Pelosi

From here. That's from someone who has seen him up close, and I think it's spot on.

@ArguingWAristotleTiff: "Less than a day after President Donald Trump bragged to supporters at a campaign-style rally in Minnesota Thursday that he was working hard to bring U.S. soldiers home from foreign wars, the Pentagon announced Friday that 1,800 troops and advanced weapons systems have been ordered to Saudi Arabia"

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/10/11/less-24-hours-after-saying-time-bring-em-home-trump-orders-1800-us-troops-saudi

Well if Nancy says so it must be true. :roll:

It speaks to whether he's fit for the office. — 3017amen

His actions do. His mindset, to the extent this cannot be inferred from his actions, are wild guesses. Even psychiatrists will not venture to diagnose someone on his public behaviour or speech so why should we entertain any of it as true when someone does it here in the forum?

It simply explains a lot of the blatant nonsense he goes on with, and also the obvious fact that he's consistently sabotaging himself. Like - if he'd let go the Mueller Report, which didn't lay a glove on him, in the end - but no, trying to ramp up some tin-hat conspiracy theory to show the whole thing was a set-up he's now made it about a thousand percent worse.

Less than a day after President Donald Trump bragged to supporters... — StreetlightX

Prince Mohamed Bin Assasin calls him up, and says, 'hey Pres, we need a hand here'

It simply explains a lot of the blatant nonsense he goes on with, and also the obvious fact that he's consistently sabotaging himself. — Wayfarer

God did it. That simply explains a lot of what's going on. So it must be true.