• VagabondSpectre
    1.6k
    Perhaps. All the more reason for them to behave,NOS4A2

    But if Trump gave the nod to Erdogan, then they're actually behaving... And if we just stick to isolationism and fail to protect the Kurds, American threats wont be worth a damn.

    What if categorically bringing our boys home would create more problems, even for Americans, than it would solve?
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    never mistake anything Trump does for a strategy. It's only ever impulse.

    News of the minute is that Trump has declared he will fight the impeachment enquiry. His defence is that he did nothing wrong, that the call that lead to the impeachment was ‘perfect’, and that he’s being unfairly harassed by the Democrats. It is possible that he can’t comprehend why what he has done is illegal, but under the circumstances it hardly constitutes a defence as much as an admission.
  • Amity
    803
    never mistake anything Trump does for a strategy. It's only ever impulse.Wayfarer
    I agree Trump is impulsive, dangerously so. However, it arguably takes place within an overall strategy.
    It's fascism but not as we know it. There are parallels between Trump and UK's Johnson in Brexit.
    5 min Ch4 interview related to the fragility of democracy. Yale professor Timothy Snyder :

    https://www.channel4.com/news/some-of-todays-politicians-have-learned-propaganda-tricks-from-1930s-fascists-says-yale-professor
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    It arguably takes place within an overall strategy.Amity

    Johnson is an amiable buffoon compared to the Donald. But hopefully they will hold hands and ride off into the sunset.

    Article de jour on Trump.


    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/10/republicans-trump-administration-bailing-ship-impeachment.html
  • Amity
    803
    Johnson is an amiable buffoon compared to the Donald. But hopefully they will hold hands and ride off into the sunset.Wayfarer

    That is how Johnson presents.
    Both represent a continuing danger; creating and reinforcing extreme divisions by hate-filled rhetoric.
    Riding off into the sunset is for the white-hatted goodies in American westerns.
    Fiction. Fake news.
    They will no doubt both prosper whatever the future brings...
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    Both represent a continuing danger; creating and reinforcing extreme divisions by hate-filled rhetoric.Amity

    Yesterday, I was freaking out, thinking 'if Trump survives the impeachment vote and gets re-elected, then surely that is the end of democracy and the beginning of a true dictatorship, because he will truly be able to get away with anything.' I've often said, with Trump, that he illustrates the Nietzschean maxim 'whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger', by getting away with things that really ought to put a complete end to his career. He's up'd it and up'd it, each time getting more outrageous, more preposterous - and yet, somehow, 'the base' (including the absurd 'conservative media') manages to say 'yeah, this is normal. The problem is at your end'. And until now, he has gotten away with it - which, along with 'abuse of power' and 'persuading people to believe lies', are his true talents.

    But now I'm really confident - for today at least - that this time, the law really is going to catch up with him. Downfall, disgrace, possible felony charges. In which case, he's actually been a vaccine - nothing like Trump will happen again for the foreseeable future. It didn't kill the US, but made it stronger.

    Here's hoping. :pray:
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    But now I'm really confident - for today at least - that this time, the law really is going to catch up with him. Downfall, disgrace, possible felony charges. In which case, he's actually been a vaccineWayfarer
    I was confident that Hillary would have experienced a similar fate that you wish for Trump and it has yet to happen, don't make the same mistake I did by holding my breath.

    nothing like Trump will happen again for the foreseeable future.Wayfarer
    Election 2020?

    it didn't kill the US, but made it stronger.Wayfarer
    Absolutely!

    Here's hoping. :pray:Wayfarer

    Here's to voting!
  • NOS4A2
    1.1k


    But if Trump gave the nod to Erdogan, then they're actually behaving... And if we just stick to isolationism and fail to protect the Kurds, American threats wont be worth a damn.

    What if categorically bringing our boys home would create more problems, even for Americans, than it would solve?

    People screamed about the same things when Trump first mentioned the withdrawal back in December. So they kicked the can down the road to a later date. That date arrives and here we are again.
  • frank
    3.4k
    Here's to voting!ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I'm not going to vote, even though like you, I'm in a swing state. I just can't vote for Trump because of what he said after Charlottesville. I'm not going to vote for a democrat either, though.

    Overall, I think he's been good for the human species. The US needs to back down from the world scene. Standing for democracy in the middle-east was a mistake. The world needs to stop relying on a peace-maker that is $20 trillion in debt.

    In spite of what we're seeing now, I think 2020 will be a really close race. More Trump is a good thing.
  • NOS4A2
    1.1k


    I'm not going to vote, even though like you, I'm in a swing state. I just can't vote for Trump because of what he said after Charlottesville.

    What did he say after Charlottesville that drew your ire?
  • Echarmion
    855
    People screamed about the same things when Trump first mentioned the withdrawal back in December. So they kicked the can down the road to a later date. That date arrives and here we are again.NOS4A2

    Trump isn't actually withdrawing any troops though. He is just pulling them back within Syria to allow Turkey's operation to go forward unimpeded.
  • Echarmion
    855
    I'm not going to vote, even though like you, I'm in a swing state. I just can't vote for Trump because of what he said after Charlottesville. I'm not going to vote for a democrat either, though.frank

    You could vote for a third party. Though I'd question why you exclude any democrat on principle.

    Overall, I think he's been good for the human species.frank

    It's far too early to make a call on that. It's entirely possible for things to go very badly as a result of the US' erratic foreign policy.
  • frank
    3.4k
    entirely possible for things to go very badly as a result of the US' erratic foreign policy.Echarmion

    That's not our problem though.
  • Echarmion
    855
    That's not our problem though.frank

    I suppose by "our" you mean Americans? How do you figure?
  • frank
    3.4k
    Erratic American foreign policy means nations learn not to trust America or rely on it.

    The US just becomes a reason to reach out to China for military defense.

    I dont think China would fuck over the middle east the way the US has, but if so, that's not our problem.
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    completely agree with you.
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    I was confident that Hillary would have experienced a similar fate that you wish for Trump and it has yet to happen, don't make the same mistake I did by holding my breath.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    I know Hillary Clinton is hated, but then, guns are loved, and neither makes sense to me. From where I sit, outside America, albeit now with near and dear ones living there, Hillary Clinton never seemed to live up, or down, to these lunatic conspiracy theories about her criminality. Whereas Trump exhales criminality with every breath.

    The US is now experiencing a constitutional crisis. I think the only resolution will be that the hard heads in the GOP recognise that Trump’s political career is over and basically fire him. I’m expecting and hoping that will happen soon. Until then, the US political system is on a downward trajectory.
  • VagabondSpectre
    1.6k
    People screamed about the same things when Trump first mentioned the withdrawal back in December. So they kicked the can down the road to a later date. That date arrives and here we are again.NOS4A2

    Again, it's not the withdraw that astonishes me, it's that the fact that Trump is set to allow (or set to be unable to prevent) the murder and slaughter of our Kurdish allies, without whom ISIS would likely still exist. We armed the Kurds, they fought and died for us, and now we're going to feed them to Erdogan? Was it all one big lie or trick that they were our allies?

    If you can't see why this is, philosophically, a moral/ethical issue of the grandest possible scale, can't you at least see why it is bad strategy? In the simplest possible terms, if the U.S backstabs and abandons the Kurdish people, then other groups across the planet who are watching will likely feel and conclude that America deserves to get fucked in return (whether by political, economic, or militaristic lack of cooperation, opposition, and beyond). At this point you might say "Good, let them try",or something along those lines, but then you'd have to consider how you would be starting down a road toward war with most of the rest of the world (a war the U.S would lose, given that its economic stability depends entirely on the cooperation of a global community). Maybe this topic is fit for another thread, but it seems to be the crux of the argument that says "we should bring our boys home in all cases": Isolationism is no longer a logistical possibility if we wish to keep our current market/commodity/innovation strength and pace.

    Remember when Trump came out and said "Nobody knew healthcare could be so complicated"? Full blown isolationism runs along the same foolish "we'll just make a great deal" angle that Trump campaigned on. How can Trump make great deals when he very obviously does not understand these games? "i know more about ISIS than the generals do, Believe me". Did you believe that? He claims to more about everything than everyone; unmatched wisdom... An official with knowledge of the Ergodan call said Trump "got rolled" and "has no spine". Do you think Trump made a great deal? Or do you think Erdogan is about to invest in yet more American-laughing-stock?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    Overall, I think he's been good for the human species. The US needs to back down from the world scene. Standing for democracy in the middle-east was a mistake. The world needs to stop relying on a peace-maker that is $20 trillion in debt.

    In spite of what we're seeing now, I think 2020 will be a really close race. More Trump is a good thing.
    frank

    I am glad he is backing down from the world scene as well I just wonder how much chaos will come with us pulling back. If Turkey is any example I am afraid of who or what ideology will fill the void.
  • StreetlightX
    4.2k
    I am glad he is backing down from the world scene as well I just wonder how much chaos will come with us pulling back.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    To be clear, the withdrawal is about 50 US soldiers. That's it. The rest of the 950 or so still remain in Syria, just not on the Northern border. So while I said previously that I was somewhat torn (precisely because I agree that the US ought to simply leave where possible), I no longer have such qualms. This was Trump being played by a foreign leader, and it's going to kill what used to be US allies because of it. 50 troops out of a thousand is not anything like a backing down from the world scene, however much that would be nice.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    I know Hillary Clinton is hated, but then, guns are loved, and neither makes sense to me.Wayfarer
    I understand it not making sense to you as at times it doesn't make sense to me either. Similar to the logic of when your car goes into a skid, turning your wheels into the direction of the skid will recover your control.

    From where I sit, outside America, albeit now with near and dear ones living there, Hillary Clinton never seemed to live up, or down, to these lunatic conspiracy theories about her criminality. Whereas Trump exhales criminality with every breath.Wayfarer
    The only real difference to me is that Trump speaks with no filter, which admittedly has its faults but at least I know he is being honest. I will never be able to say that about Hillary going back to her being First Lady and the dismissal of sexual allegations against her husband and the hatred was spawned in me with her bs of the tragedy of Benghazi.

    The US is now experiencing a constitutional crisis. I think the only resolution will be that the hard heads in the GOP recognise that Trump’s political career is over and basically fire him. I’m expecting and hoping that will happen soon. Until then, the US political system is on a downward trajectory.Wayfarer

    What do you mean by a "constitutional crisis"? Do you mean a monumental crisis? Or do you see our US Constitution in crisis? If it is the latter, please expound upon what you see as the "crisis".
    As far as the tragectory of our "political system"? I don't see it headed in a downward spiral, in fact I think we are witnessing the strength of our governing, living Constitution.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    To be clear, the withdrawal is about 50 US soldiers. That's it. The rest of the 950 or so still remain in Syria, just not on the Northern border.StreetlightX

    I heard the number of troops being withdrawn is 90 not 50. And as far as "That's it"? It's more than 0 and to those fortunate 50 or 90 troops families? It means the world to them. Let's not lose sight of the importance of the single soldier at home, regardless of the size of the presence on the battlefield.
  • StreetlightX
    4.2k
    Tell that to the thousands of families of Kurds, to whom the US has broken their promises (granted thanks to their fighting alongside US forces to eliminate ISIS), and will now die.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    Tell that to the thousands of families of Kurds, to whom the US has broken their promises (granted thanks to their fighting alongside US forces to eliminate ISIS), and will now die.StreetlightX

    The tragedy unfolding in our departure is not lost on me and my heart breaks for everyone caught in the middle of this nightmare. I am not looking to get into a "suffering" contest of who will suffer more. I am looking to support a responsible way out.
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    What do you mean by a "constitutional crisis"?ArguingWAristotleTiff

    It’s a front page story on practically every journal of record today. The crisis is that the President has declared that he will not recognize the constitutionally-mandated investigation that is being carried out in response to the ‘whistleblower’ account of his alleged criminal acts. He is basically saying the Congress has no authority to conduct the investigation. Even Nixon didn’t do that, and what Trump is accused of is much worse than what Nixon resigned over. So it’s an impasse - a crisis. He’s essentially declaring himself above the law.
  • Maw
    1.6k
    I am looking to support a responsible way out.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Ok but this aint it.
  • Wayfarer
    8.6k
    I think we are witnessing the strength of our governing, living Constitution.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    You would be, if the impeachment process wasn’t being stymied. As it is....
  • StreetlightX
    4.2k
    . I am looking to support a responsible way out.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    What Maw said. And this isn't a 'suffering contest'. That implies some kind of game. This isn't a game. People. Will. Die. Your allies will die. Don't obfuscate that with gaming metaphors to make yourself feel better.
  • TheWillowOfDarkness
    1.9k
    I'm inclined to think there is no responsible way out in this so situation. So long as stability was given by the presence of US troops, I don't think there is an ethical way to withdraw. It's analogous to disbanding a security force and a rule of law to allow friends to be robbed.

    Being the closest thing to God in the area of foreign policy comes with responsibility. In these circumstances, the tragedy is entirely lost. To withdraw is to literally abandon your friends because there is work and risk involved to have their back.
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