This has exactly zero bearing on whether Trump colluded or not and the Russian intereference in the election. It's a red herring. — Benkei

Part of the DNC narrative is connected to Russian hacking of the DNC server, which they did not allow the FBI to verify. They paid a contractor with money able to buy anything. If this DNC Russian hack narrative turns out to be false, based on proof given by Assange, the first of wave of DNC and swamp lies is exposed.

We may have to set up another special investigation, this time stacked with Trump lawyers and supporters, maybe led by the vengeful Chris Christie. Hillary had commandeered the DNC, during that internal leak or hack, so she may now have to be investigated for lying to the current investigation. Mueller may have to change the direction of his investigation, or be subject to the second investigation. This is all timed out for maximum impact. It is the D-day invasion where the virus is pushed back.

If this DNC Russian hack narrative turns out to be false, based on proof given by Assange, the first of wave of DNC and swamp lies is exposed. — wellwisher

It happened. The Dutch intelligence agency saw it happening. Stop grasping at straws trying to have reality conform to your worldview and instead let yourself be informed by reality.

If this DNC Russian hack narrative turns out to be false, based on proof given by Assange, the first of wave of DNC and swamp lies is exposed. — wellwisher

You may stretch your imagination in which ever direction you want, describe it, and stick an "if" in front. When you get good at it you can remove the "if" and write good fiction.

https://boingboing.net/2018/08/10/don-jr-does-horrible-job-tryi.html

If he's this bad at deceiving the public, it doesn't bode well for his chances against Mueller.

About Trump's repeated claims that the 'real collusion' was between the DNC and Russia:

"The claim that Ms. Clinton’s 2016 opposition- research activities were on the same moral or legal plane as the Trump team’s direct interactions with Russians represents a preposterous effort to confuse and distract.

Here is what the Trump team did: Senior campaign officials, including then-chairman Paul Manafort, Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner, met in June 2016 with Natalia Veselnitskaya, a Kremlin-connected lawyer. They were told the lawyer could give them “very high level and sensitive information” on Ms. Clinton, as “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

Here is what the Clinton campaign did: It employed a U.S. law firm that hired a U.S. research outfit that brought in Christopher Steele, a British ex-spy, to gather information on Mr. Trump from his network of sources. That network included Russians.

There is no evidence of any direct meetings or even tenuous connections between Clinton’s senior staff and Russian operatives. When the information Steele was gathering on Mr. Trump seemed alarming, he informed the FBI. When the Russian government offered dirt on Mr. Trump’s opponent, the Trump campaign didn’t even alert authorities about it. It eagerly took the meeting, with Trump Jr commenting 'I love it!' when told of the prospect of incriminating information'. 1.

The fact is, Trump himself simply cannot fathom that the Mueller investigation is anything other than an evil plot by political enemies to being him down. At the time of the Putin press conference, his own staff were backgrounding the media to the effect that Trump 'couldn't get his head around' the difference between there being an investigation into Russian meddling and accusations that Trump himself had consciously colluded with Russian agents. It was a distinction which is simply too complex for the notoriously short Trump attention span to absorb. So, in his own mind, the whole investigation is an outrageous fabrication, because he can't pay enough attention to actually understand what it's about.

But as he now has a large constituency of supporters who will believe anything he says, notwithstanding the abundant documentation of Trump's lies and un-truths, then these people are ready to believe that the whole 'Russia thing' is really a sinister DNC plot. And they'll stand and applaud his stump speeches, and turn out and vote for him again and again.

The importance of myth* in public discourse...

There is no importance of 'God' anywhere.

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolvent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able not willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurus

Most banking transactions take places over a transatlantic fiberoptic link that goes directly up to Wall Street. A lot of large scale transations would place nationwide economies at risk if they were transmitted though the air. A simple receiver set up at the local source would allow for the worst type of insider trading practices, but on a worlwide scale.

You should probably source that.

But as he now has a large constituency of supporters who will believe anything he says, notwithstanding the abundant documentation of Trump's lies and un-truths, then these people are ready to believe that the whole 'Russia thing' is really a sinister DNC plot. And they'll stand and applaud his stump speeches, and turn out and vote for him again and again. — Wayfarer

As someone with some faith in the collective wisdom of the American people how does this happen. Is it just tribal, have we chosen sides, right or wrong? Is this some racial backlash over a black president. Is it fear. Anger? I don’t understand this collective acceptance of such a lack of character

It is sourced, click on the ‘one’ at the end of the quoted passage.

Billions of words have been written on that. Three years ago when he was starting his run I would frequently refer to the Wikipedia article on demagogues:

A demagogue /ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/ (from Greek δημαγωγός, a popular leader, a leader of a mob, from δῆμος, people, populace, the commons + ἀγωγός leading, leader)[1] or rabble-rouser is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation.[1][2][3][4] Demagogues overturn established customs of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.

Which seems clearly what Trump is.

Beloveds, these are some bad, ugly, angry times. And I am so freaked out. Hatred has stolen the conversation. The poor are now voting against themselves. But politics is not about left or right. It’s about up and down. The few screwing the many — Some play

Every banking transaction.
The control over our power grid.
The logistical control over our delivering of food and fuel.
Our ability to control commercial air travel.
Battlefield operations. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

The first four aren't true. That's all landlines. The last one is greatly helped by GPS but not dependent on it. — Benkei

My dear friend, I am not sure you realize just how dependent we have become on the communication through satellites. Here in the USA, many people, MANY people no longer have "land lines" because they have a cell phone. Most land line owners are people who work from home and those over 45+. It might be different over in the Netherlands but my Indian that was just in Europe said that the cell phone reception there was like two tin cans and a string between. Here? If the satellites were knocked out cell phones will be affected. Even if we were able to time stamp our transactions with the rest of the world via landline phones, there would be a huge lag which would halt any trading of stocks or monetary exchanges.

The control over our power grid again I assert it would be a timing issue that would cause surges in power and rolling black outs. "If" that were to happen, the cascading affect or the secondary and tertiary impact on our hospitals, police stations, fire department would be crippling. All of our first responders are using GPS which is why they are able to communicate via truck to truck rather than to dispatch and back. Again, I am not saying it is impossible but it will slow down the warp speed in which we have become dependent on.

GPS plays a crucial role our ability to control logistical control over the delievering of our food and fuel across America. I am not sure how it works in the Netherlands, if you are all still on street corners with your veggies and into the Butchers to get your meat but here in the USA, many of us get those items from one grocery store. Whether it comes in from the West Coast off a container ship or from Chicago out to the rest of the nation, most of it is delivered by train and then by truck. Yes, the trains, though they will not run on time, will run on a set track that does not depend upon GPS. But once those trains arrive at their distribution center, those products are loaded onto trucks that move out in every direction, across our nation. Those trucks will no longer have GPS and yes they will have maps but it is the slow down that is going to be our Achilles Heel. Puerto Rico was a recent example of how crippling the ability to move food and fuel to the needed areas was and how many folks died from the cascading affects of no AC and medications/medical care being able to move it out to remote areas.

Now Benkei, if you don't believe the affect that a loss of GPS will have on our planes in the air as well as on the ground, I am beginning to doubt your logic about this. Yes, it is true that commercial pilots are taught how to fly their planes via the control panel and by sight but the Tower would have to manually be keeping track of these planes and landing them visually but when they are landing every 60 seconds on a good day? Think of the back log, the circling, the major backup with plane loads of people trying to get clearance to land. I have been debating this here at the ranch and my youngest who is a Sophomore in College said that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to do but it has been done. To which I guessed he was referring to 9.11 which he was and I agreed with him. Sure we could get, along with other countries support, specifically Canada, ALL of our planes in the air, on the ground with a couple of hours but then what?

The last one, the battlefield operations is by far the most important one when it comes to the protection of our citizens. Even if only one of my scenarios above, were to by some snowball's chance in Hell to actually come to fruition, we would be screwed, for a while...

But only for a while, IF, (which my son insists on interjecting) a malicious attack was successful. His logic is because satellites are a lot cheaper to make, launch and successfully complete it's mission to enter into the web of satellite communication than it would be to successfully take out a Satellite with any degree of accuracy with a missile.

Not bad for a kid turning 20 but having lived a few more years, I believe that it is the "unknown" risks that we really cannot do anything about but the known? The even possible, remote chance?
It's better to take out an insurance policy, clear a defendable space around what you wish to protect before the wildfire takes hold then to get caught with your pants down, saying "Who would have thought that THIS could ever happen?"

The link between the Russian hacking and Trump (in trying to figure out why it's being discussed in a thread about Trump) appears to be limited to the fact that Trump has gone from being highly skeptical, to outright denying, and then finally reluctantly acquiescing to claims of official Russian involvement in the DNC hack. There is no evidence of Trump collusion in the hacks, nor is there any evidence of the election being impacted by the hacks. What we have here really amounts to some embarrassing revelations about the DNC brought about by the hacks and concern, if left unaddressed, that one day an election could be affected by hacks.

You've got nothing on Trump here other than his stubborn and apparently irrational defense of the Russians over the his own intelligence sources. I actually knew he was stubborn and impudent before this episode though.

You've got nothing on Trump here — Hanover

Yep. Maybe obstruction of justice. We'll see.

My dear friend, I am not sure you realize just how dependent we have become on the communication through satellites. Here in the USA, many people, MANY people no longer have "land lines" because they have a cell phone. Most land line owners are people who work from home and those over 45+. It might be different over in the Netherlands but my Indian that was just in Europe said that the cell phone reception there was like two tin cans and a string between. Here? If the satellites were knocked out cell phones will be affected. Even if we were able to time stamp our transactions with the rest of the world via landline phones, there would be a huge lag which would halt any trading of stocks or monetary exchanges. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

That might be the case but you were talking about banking transactions not cellular to cellular calls. Cellular networks don't need to transmit to satellites either and in the Netherlands are directed over landlines, as it's much cheaper. So, like all internet data, for the most part, it does not go over satellite since satellite bandwidth is hella expensive (I should know, having worked for the EU equivalent of NASA, remember? :wink: )

The control over our power grid again I assert it would be a timing issue that would cause surges in power and rolling black outs. "If" that were to happen, the cascading affect or the secondary and tertiary impact on our hospitals, police stations, fire department would be crippling. All of our first responders are using GPS which is why they are able to communicate via truck to truck rather than to dispatch and back. Again, I am not saying it is impossible but it will slow down the warp speed in which we have become dependent on. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Power companies can and still do predict power output and usage on a variety of predictive models and have faillsafes to reroute overcapacity across the network. While satellites nowadays can help in ascertaining the amount of solar panels, they are not directly necessary for the work power companies do to manage the grid.

As to the first responders, I don't know what the US uses but here there is a system that makes setting up a private network possible which doesn't rely on an uplink to a satellite for the local calls between trucks but would require the satellite once connecting to dispatch. But if the satellite goes out, they can still use regular cellphones. So still no biggie.

GPS plays a crucial role our ability to control logistical control over the delievering of our food and fuel across America. I am not sure how it works in the Netherlands, if you are all still on street corners with your veggies and into the Butchers to get your meat but here in the USA, many of us get those items from one grocery store. Whether it comes in from the West Coast off a container ship or from Chicago out to the rest of the nation, most of it is delivered by train and then by truck. Yes, the trains, though they will not run on time, will run on a set track that does not depend upon GPS. But once those trains arrive at their distribution center, those products are loaded onto trucks that move out in every direction, across our nation. Those trucks will no longer have GPS and yes they will have maps but it is the slow down that is going to be our Achilles Heel. Puerto Rico was a recent example of how crippling the ability to move food and fuel to the needed areas was and how many folks died from the cascading affects of no AC and medications/medical care being able to move it out to remote areas. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I don't see the issue here. The speed of living hasn't increased to such an extent that stopping to look at a paper map is going to be a problem. This seems to be an exaggeration.

The first responders and logistics are supported by avoiding congestion and the like but it's not the end of the world. This will cause a few deaths but it's not going to cause chaos.

Finally, you need 3 satellites for a positioning and 4 for an accurate positioning. So the system is operational with 18 satellites, preferably 24. There are 33 in operation now. Then there's also Galileo and Glonass, which can work as a back-up. That's a lot of satellites you need to destroy at ludicrous expenses, which itself would be dependent on GPS to accurately fire to begin with, before you really start disabling people's ability to use GPS or its alternatives.

Now Benkei, if you don't believe the affect that a loss of GPS will have on our planes in the air as well as on the ground, I am beginning to doubt your logic about this. Yes, it is true that commercial pilots are taught how to fly their planes via the control panel and by sight but the Tower would have to manually be keeping track of these planes and landing them visually but when they are landing every 60 seconds on a good day? Think of the back log, the circling, the major backup with plane loads of people trying to get clearance to land. I have been debating this here at the ranch and my youngest who is a Sophomore in College said that it wouldn't be the easiest thing to do but it has been done. To which I guessed he was referring to 9.11 which he was and I agreed with him. Sure we could get, along with other countries support, specifically Canada, ALL of our planes in the air, on the ground with a couple of hours but then what? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Air traffic control is done on the basis of radar not GPS.

The link between the Russian hacking and Trump (in trying to figure out why it's being discussed in a thread about Trump) appears to be limited to the fact that Trump has gone from being highly skeptical, to outright denying, and then finally reluctantly acquiescing to claims of official Russian involvement in the DNC hack. There is no evidence of Trump collusion in the hacks, nor is there any evidence of the election being impacted by the hacks. What we have here really amounts to some embarrassing revelations about the DNC brought about by the hacks and concern, if left unaddressed, that one day an election could be affected by hacks.

You've got nothing on Trump here other than his stubborn and apparently irrational defense of the Russians over the his own intelligence sources. I actually knew he was stubborn and impudent before this episode though. — Hanover

There's some pretty compelling circumstantial evidence though. When talking about the hacking during a debate with Clinton he let slip something damaging:

I don't think anybody knows it was Russia that broke into the DNC. She's saying Russia, Russia, Russia, but I don't — maybe it was. I mean, it could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, okay?

...

I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable.

To anyone with half a brain it's clear that Barron was complicit, no doubt taking charge of some aspects given Trump's penchant for nepotism.

To anyone with half a brain it's clear that Barron was complicit, no doubt taking charge of some aspects given Trump's penchant for nepotism. — Michael

I looked up "Barron" and it means warrior. So, if we can combine all these clues, the culprit is a 400 pound Chinese warrior sitting on their bed. Doesn't seem too hard to find.

Prolly one of these guys (my guess is the one on the right, not his svelte counterpart):



At a minimum I just proved there is a picture of everything on the internet.

Air traffic control is done on the basis of radar not GPS. — Benkei

Military planes are dependent upon GPS so that our bombs blow up the right shit. Without it, we'd have to use paper maps and look for landmarks out the window.

That might be the case but you were talking about banking transactions not cellular to cellular calls. Cellular networks don't need to transmit to satellites either and in the Netherlands are directed over landlines, as it's much cheaper. So, like all internet data, for the most part, it does not go over satellite since satellite bandwidth is hella expensive (I should know, having worked for the EU equivalent of NASA, remember? :wink: ) — Benkei

No, I haven't forgotten for a moment about the EU's NASA but I thought maybe....Okay with that hard of an accurate blow to my theory should at least been started with a "darlin" or a "sweetheart" just to soften it a bit!
Hey, I thought you spent some time studying how to mitigate feelings being dented when in small group communication...

The control over our power grid again I assert it would be a timing issue that would cause surges in power and rolling black outs. "If" that were to happen, the cascading affect or the secondary and tertiary impact on our hospitals, police stations, fire department would be crippling. All of our first responders are using GPS which is why they are able to communicate via truck to truck rather than to dispatch and back. Again, I am not saying it is impossible but it will slow down the warp speed in which we have become dependent on. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Power companies can and still do predict power output and usage on a variety of predictive models and have failsafe's to reroute overcapacity across the network. While satellites nowadays can help in ascertaining the amount of solar panels, they are not directly necessary for the work power companies do to manage the grid. — Benkei

That one word is where our Achilles Heel is located. As I explained to my son, we don't know what we don't know. We didn't know that airplanes could be used as big freakin missiles loaded with hundreds of people before 9.11 either. Have you ever seen the movie 'Fail Safe' with Henry Fonda? It's worth a watch.

As to the first responders, I don't know what the US uses but here there is a system that makes setting up a private network possible which doesn't rely on an uplink to a satellite for the local calls between trucks but would require the satellite once connecting to dispatch. But if the satellite goes out, they can still use regular cellphones. So still no biggie. — Benkei

For some reason I cannot get you to understand what an impact "still no biggie" has when it is complicated by the slow down to a grind and how that impacts our current ability to provide life saving support.

GPS plays a crucial role our ability to control logistical control over the delievering of our food and fuel across America. I am not sure how it works in the Netherlands, if you are all still on street corners with your veggies and into the Butchers to get your meat but here in the USA, many of us get those items from one grocery store. Whether it comes in from the West Coast off a container ship or from Chicago out to the rest of the nation, most of it is delivered by train and then by truck. Yes, the trains, though they will not run on time, will run on a set track that does not depend upon GPS. But once those trains arrive at their distribution center, those products are loaded onto trucks that move out in every direction, across our nation. Those trucks will no longer have GPS and yes they will have maps but it is the slow down that is going to be our Achilles Heel. Puerto Rico was a recent example of how crippling the ability to move food and fuel to the needed areas was and how many folks died from the cascading affects of no AC and medications/medical care being able to move it out to remote areas. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

I don't see the issue here. The speed of living hasn't increased to such an extent that stopping to look at a paper map is going to be a problem. This seems to be an exaggeration.

The first responders and logistics are supported by avoiding congestion and the like but it's not the end of the world. This will cause a few deaths but it's not going to cause chaos. — Benkei

"A few deaths"... <shaking my head in disbelief> chaos will ensue.

Finally, you need 3 satellites for a positioning and 4 for an accurate positioning. So the system is operational with 18 satellites, preferably 24. There are 33 in operation now. Then there's also Galileo and Glonass, which can work as a back-up. That's a lot of satellites you need to destroy at ludicrous expenses, which itself would be dependent on GPS to accurately fire to begin with, before you really start disabling people's ability to use GPS or its alternatives. — Benkei

I have heard the cost/risk ratio and I am still for finding a way to protect the satellites from nefarious actions. There are a few prototypes of defending one but what it would cost to defend the core of the system? I don't know. I keep hearing it isn't financially sound but I am still not convinced.

Air traffic control is done on the basis of radar not GPS. — Benkei

My indian has offered to set up an appointment with the Professor that teaches the ATC program at his college and see if He can bridge my gap in logic about this because my indian is convinced that the planes would be fine and we would be able to adapt quickly enough to keep safety in line with the "possible" cascading affects.

I call a degree of bs or better for him a degree of naivety, as I have seen when a simple power outage in New York or LA can do to it's people
AND
those battlefield operations that "might" be effected? Those my friend, are going to be muy importante when a war is started by a malicious attack on OUR satellite system.

Can the Netherlands handle what little chaos is here on Earth, while the American's who were laughed yesterday and today, are in the middle of executing a plan that will retaliate against those who attacked OUR satellite system?

@Benkei
Oh look what came up on my news feed...

Why does this question keep popping up? As a liberal, anything I might think trump has done right is completely overshadowed and negated by the multitude of things he’s done to damage this country.

Do I think cutting taxes was good? For some people, but not for the ones who need it the most, and not when it’s going to impact Social Security and Medicare, both of which I and millions of other Americans rely on.

Do I think strengthening our borders is good? Not when it includes young children being separated from their parents, damages our relationship with the Mexican government, and ignores the fact that most Americans oppose it.

Do I think improved relations with Russia is a good thing? Not when the person who has sworn to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" asserts a stronger faith in the words of a former KGB agent over the reports of his own intelligence agencies, and refuses to call that former KGB agent out on his actions on the international front and the actions he took against our election process.

Do I think trump fulfills the role of “moral leader” of the country? Only if your “morals” include insulting war heroes and their families, ridiculing the disabled, having multiple affairs while married, provably lying almost every time he speaks, calling our most sacred institution - the press - the “enemy of the people,” equating racists with peaceful demonstrators, bullying people by name and in public when they don’t agree with him, and ravaging our environment by the actions of his appointed cabinet members.

So, no, I can’t think of anything he’s done “right” that isn’t completely overshadowed by the myriad things he’s done - and continues to do - wrong. After all, Ted Bundy may have helped a little old lady cross the street at some point. — From Quora

Were satellites involved?

I remember being on vacation on a beach in California with family when this happened.

If revealed as true, I wonder how many Trump supporters will finally realize he is a racist, vs. say that if black people can say it why can't whites

This is old news and known during election period. It's not going to change anything. People continue to surprise me when they think trump's behaviour is going to make him any less popular with his base. It's not going to happen.

Was it? I don't recall that. At least nothing recorded, yeah? The pussy-grabbing comment did shift perception, somewhat.

Actually, I believe it was Nate Silver that said that if the pussy-grabbing revelation was switched with Comey's Clinton email probe announcement, a Clinton presidency would have been likely.

Mexicans are rapists. Disparaging remarks about a Mexican judge. The birther thing. Disparaging the Khan's. The Central Park 5.

Nobody cares.

Oh, I thought you literally meant that Trump said the N-word during the election.

On the contrary, for a disturbing amount of Americans, there is a conceptual difference between saying the N-word out-loud, and saying that Mexicans are rapists, the Birther movement, The Central Park 5, etc.. Many Americans have an extremely narrow view on racism, how it functions and can be expressed in myriad casual and subtle forms, i.e. if it doesn't beat you over the head, it's not racism.