• boundless
    760
    That’s true, although it’s worth noting that Aristotle’s unmoved mover does not function as a source of the world’s intelligibility. As νοήσεως νόησις, it thinks only itself, and does not impose form or order on the cosmos. For Aristotle, the intelligibility of nature is intrinsic to substances themselves rather than conferred by a divine intellect contemplating or structuring the world.Esse Quam Videri

    I'm not so sure about this. While God is not seen as an efficient cause of entities, it is seen as their final cause, IIRC. Given this, I'm not sure how you can safely say that their intelligibility isn't rooted in the Unmoved Mover according to him.

    Regardless for that, however, I agree with you that intelligibility alone certainly doesn't 'prove' the existence of God.
  • boundless
    760
    Well, my first reaction is to examine the question to work out what will count as an answer.Ludwig V

    Yes, I agree.

    A disordered pile of books is only chaotic because it is not ordered in a way that is interesting to us. There are in fact, endless ways in which they could be ordered. Our problem is only to pick which order we impose on them. Radical chaos is different. In such a world, we would be unable to identify any object, process or event; there could be no constituents to be ordered or chaotic.Ludwig V

    In other words, the intelligibility of the world to you is a 'given' that isn't explainable in terms of something more fundamental. Am I misunderstanding you?

    Fair enough.Ludwig V

    Ok.
  • Esse Quam Videri
    444
    I'm not so sure about this. While God is not seen as an efficient cause of entities, it is seen as their final cause, IIRC. Given this, I'm not sure how you can safely say that their intelligibility isn't rooted in the Unmoved Mover according to him.boundless

    That’s a fair point — you’re right that, for Aristotle, the Unmoved Mover functions as a final cause of cosmic motion, even though it is not an efficient cause. I don’t mean to deny that.

    My claim is narrower: even granting divine final causality, Aristotle does not treat the Unmoved Mover as the source of the intelligible form of natural substances. Final causality explains why motion is directed toward an end; form explains what a thing is, and it is form that grounds intelligibility. On Aristotle’s own terms, those forms are intrinsic to substances rather than conferred by divine cognition.

    So while Aristotle certainly affirms a divine intellect, the intelligibility of nature, as he understands it, does not consist in being thought by God, but in being formally structured in its own right. And on that much, I think we agree that intelligibility alone doesn’t prove the existence of God.
  • Janus
    18k
    I’m not saying that anyone should believe it, or that I believe it. But that we should at least acknowledge that it was believed by all the adherents of these religions movements and is depicted en masse in their iconography and teachings. And was accepted as true by the whole population prior to the Cartesian divide.Punshhh

    I don't think this assessment is accurate if the Ancient Greeks philosophers are taken into account.

    All I’m saying is that if we are going to consider transcendence, we have to somehow translate what is revealed to people during revelation into something amenable to philosophical discourse. That there is no other way. It is rather like Kant’s neumenon. Philosophy accepts the neumenon into discursive discourse, why not transcendence? It’s rather like a positive form of neumenon.Punshhh

    Perhaps, but 'revelation' is a loaded term―I prefer 'altered states' or 'non-ordinary states'. Kant's noumenon is specifically defined as that of which no experience at all is possible. The question about revelation is as to whether what is revealed is the same as what is articulated. The question is whether adequate discursive articulation is possible. I tend to think not. In fact I think the same about ordinary states―they are made to seem ordinary by the assumption that our talk in terms of identities adequately characterizes them, captures their nature.

    For Husserl and the other thinkers I mentioned there are no thing-in-themselves. Not just because humans or animals must be present for them to be perceived, but because a world seen in itself, apart from humans or animals, is a temporal flux of qualitative change with respect to itself.Joshs

    I agree―we identify things as determinate things, as being this or that. On the other hand I think there is structure in the temporal flux or field of differential intensities that is the determinator, that enables the reliable appearance of a shared world for both humans and animals. If not all would be anarchic chaos, and no discourse at all possible.

    Spinoza, yes. Hegel and Whitehead, no. For the latter two the idea of mathematical truths that are utterly independent of history, world, relation, or realization is not just false, it is philosophically incoherent.Joshs

    I'm not going to argue about Hegel, as he is complicated and variously interpreted, including as having links with the Hermetic Tradition, but I think you need to look closer at Whitehead. In his ontology there are actual occasions, more or less evanescent events that make up the spatiotemporal flux that constitutes reality, and there are eternal objects―atemporal potentials that are "ingressed" (a Whiteheadian term that Levin has adopted) in the actual occasions. Basically the actualization of eternal potentials. Mathematical objects, or better, patterns, and forms, including ontic forms.

    Whitehead stands Plato on his head as Marx did with Hegel―or perhaps better, stood Plato on his feet (as Marx said he did with Hegel), in that he denied that actual reality is the dim, imperfect copy of eternal forms, but their actualization, without which they would be effectively nothing at all. The eternal objects together constitute the totality of possibility, which is of course, numerically speaking, far greater than actuality, but greater only in that sense.
  • Ludwig V
    2.5k
    In other words, the intelligibility of the world to you is a 'given' that isn't explainable in terms of something more fundamental. Am I misunderstanding you?boundless
    I don't find a clear meaning in the question whether the world is intelligible or not. I was trying to extract some sense from it, by paying attention to cases, rather than large generalities.

    I was saying, perhaps not very clearly,
    1. that in some cases, what we call disorder is disorder in a collection of objects (or processes) that we can recognize. So it is disorder among elements, but identifying the elements is a level of order. Here, the world is both ordered and disordered. It's a question of levels.
    2. so in radical disorder (as in "the world is unintelligible") we could not even identify distinct objects or processes. What, then, would it mean, to say that such a world existed - not that it could be said, because we couldn't exist in it.
    3. Sometimes, order in the world is something we recognize, and sometimes it is something we impost, in the sense that we choose which of many possible orderings we wish to pay attention to. In the latter case, it is a moot point whether one says that we recognize the order or impose it.

    It seems to me that "The world is unintelligible" and "The world is intelligible" are a false dilemma. But even to consider it allows that it is possible that the world is intelligible, and even that possibility may be sufficient to say that the world is intelligible. I would rather say that the possibility is a methodological assumption which is indefeasible, because if our existing ways of understanding the world fail us, we can construct new ones. So there will never be compelling evidence that we must give up on that assumption.

    The straightest answer I can give is that the world is partly intelligible and partly not. But even where we do not understand some part of the world, we wring from it such understanding as we can.

    Does that help?
  • Punshhh
    3.6k
    I don't think this assessment is accurate if the Ancient Greeks philosophers are taken into account.
    Yes, there would have been a few deeper thinkers who had thought about this, but the world they were living in was steeped in the belief, to such an extent that it was as accepted as real as water and air.*
    Perhaps, but 'revelation' is a loaded term―I prefer 'altered states' or 'non-ordinary states'. Kant's noumenon is specifically defined as that of which no experience at all is possible
    Yes, altered states could suffice, but it leaves out the important thing about revelation. That the person is contacted by a being, who is in a transcendent relationship to himself. This requires something called hosting, in which the person is temporarily transfigured, or “sees through” the eyes of the transcendent being. Is taken up into heaven, so to speak and witnesses heaven. That when the person comes back down to earth, what they witnessed is no longer explainable, or conceivable, but is couched in a conceptual language of this world and their terrestrial conditioning. Hence allegory, now if that person discusses their experience with someone else who has witnessed similar, they are holding a discursive conversation about a transcendent state.

    By comparison, and I’m not drawing a direct comparison, only hinting at a possible parallel. In the human body were we to assume a transcendent relationship between the person and the individual cells in his body, a hosted cell might be a receptor cell in the eye, or a memory cell in the brain of the person. Such that an individual cell in his body bares witness to the transcended state of being a person. Of course that cell would not “comprehend” what it witnessed, but the image perceived by the person, has possibly passed through that cell, so in an esoteric sense, the cell did witness something the person saw.
    The question is whether adequate discursive articulation is possible.
    Two people who have experienced revelation can hold a discursive discussion about it.

    Regarding the neumenon, I still see a parallel, it’s true that we may never experience the neumenon, or have an understanding of it. But we are composed of it, hosted by it, so in a sense we have access to it. But we are totally blind of that access.

    In fact I think the same about ordinary states―they are made to seem ordinary by the assumption that our talk in terms of identities adequately characterizes them, captures their nature.
    I agree entirely, which may be a doorway through which it can be discussed.

    *I could go on at length about how a culture, particularly a historic culture, where everyone believes something without question. Is very different to what we experience in our disparate culture. Magic does happen, religious narratives do come to life. I witnessed such myself in India.
  • boundless
    760
    Does that help?Ludwig V

    I'm not sure. Intelligibility of an entity merely means that, in principle, the entity has some kind of structure that can be known by an intellect. So even claiming that an entity has a structure implies saying that it is intelligible IMO (not necessarily by you or me but in principle).

    It seems to me that you aren't denying that the world independent from us has a structure. To me this means that you're saying that it is intelligible. However, this intelligibility might be a 'given' that isn't necessarily 'due to' something more fundamental. I would say that it is 'due to' something more fundamental but intelligibility alone doesn't force that conclusion.
  • Janus
    18k
    I don't find much to disagree with there so I'll just comment on this:
    *I could go on at length about how a culture, particularly a historic culture, where everyone believes something without question. Is very different to what we experience in our disparate culture. Magic does happen, religious narratives do come to life. I witnessed such myself in India.Punshhh

    There is certainly a power to collective belief.
  • Tom Storm
    10.9k
    There is certainly a power to collective belief.Janus

    Yep, there's a power in shared worldviews, motivated reasoning, and magical thinking. I can think of subcultures here (I’m sure you can too) who claim to have experienced things which are not particularly surprising, but are taken as incontrovertible evidence of magic.

    My favourite was a man I knew who had been one of L. Ron Hubbard’s early assistants back in the 1960s. I asked him if L. Ron was special. He said, "Yes, very much." He once witnessed L. Ron’s hair go from grey one day to red the next.

    "Hair dye?" I offered. He looked pained, thought for a while, and then said, "No. Will power."
  • Punshhh
    3.6k
    Nice story, I have looked very carefully for signs of physical magic throughout my life and don’t think I’ve witnessed it, or seen good evidence for it. Well apart from the time two rizzler papers that seemed to move of their own accord into position to make a joint, at a News Years Eve rave in Goa. Although I’m a bit suspicious of how that happened.

    Joking aside, there is plenty of opportunity for magic to happen without violating the laws of nature. All it needs is movement and the opportunity for chance coincidences in the physical world. Or internally within the mind, or being of a person, or group of people.

    I would say though, that I do think that if there is a heaven, or Nirvana, that magic is common place, or even intrinsic to what happens there and that the fact that physical magic doesn’t happen in the physical world is due to it’s structure, rather than the absence of magic at all.
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    My proposed second installment on Michel Bitbol was rejected by Philosophy Today. No reason given, but maybe because it's too specialised a subject matter, Bitbol's philosophy of quantum physics. But anyone interested can access it here ('friend link', ought not to require registration.)
  • Janus
    18k
    That's very funny if not a little sad!
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    Some commentary on the idea of transpersonal subjectivity developed in dialogue with claude.ai

    The supposedly "objective" view of science - the God's eye view, the view from nowhere - actually depends on subjective capacities (conceptualization, measurement, mathematical reasoning) that have been systematically hidden or bracketed. The subject is constitutively necessary for the objective picture but gets erased from the picture itself.

    In quantum mechanics specifically:

    This erasure becomes impossible to maintain. The measurement apparatus, the observer's choice of what to measure, the collapse of the wave function - the subject keeps reappearing because quantum phenomena are inherently relational. You can't bracket out the conditions of observation the way classical physics was able to.

    Michel Bitbol's "veiled subject":

    Bitbol argues that modern science achieved its success precisely by veiling the transcendental subject - making it seem like we're describing nature "as it is in itself." But this veiling has costs: we forget that all such knowledge is contingent on the structures of possible experience. Quantum mechanics has forced this forgotten 'bracketing' back into view.

    The "transpersonal" qualifier is important:

    The transpersonal subject is not solipsistic - it is not 'the individual consciousness creating reality'. Rather, it's the shared structures of rationality, perception, and measurement that together constitute the conditions for any subject. Accordingly, the 'veiled subject' is transcendental/transpersonal, not psychological.
  • Joshs
    6.7k


    The transpersonal subject is not solipsistic - it is not 'the individual consciousness creating reality'. Rather, it's the shared structures of rationality, perception, and measurement that together constitute the conditions for any subject. Accordingly, the 'veiled subject' is transcendental/transpersonal, not psychologicalWayfarer

    In writers like Ken Wilber transpersonal psychology has specific connotations pointing to mystical experiences and expanded consciousness. Do you subscribe to this vein of thought, and are you imputing it to Bitbol’s work?
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    I know the term ‘transpersonal’ used to be associated with Wilbur, but he stopped using it and it generally fell out of use in the 1990s. But I think it conveys the drift of the transcendental subject quite well - ‘those capacities and faculties which characterise any rational sentient being, not this or that person’. I haven’t noticed anything in Bitbol about ‘mystical experience’ and mystical experience is not a term I’m inclined to use in the context of his material.
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    My follow-up essay on Michel Bitbol, Phenomenology Meets Buddhism, has been published on Philosophy Today site on Medium. 'Friend link' is here. (I'm still mostly offsite for the next little while working on a creative writing project.)
  • Sam26
    3.2k
    I agree with much of what he's saying, but with a Wittgensteinian twist, viz., consciousness is the bedrock hinge of reality. It's as fundamental as we are objects separate from other objects. It's the arational starting point of all that exists.

    So, how might I answer the question, "What is the origin of consciousness?"

    If consciousness is bedrock, this is not an empirical origin question at all. It's similar to asking, “What makes inquiry possible?” On my view, the answer is, consciousness does, and it's not the sort of thing that receives a further causal explanation without circularity or the problem of infinite regress.

    A further point I'll throw in for good measure. Consciousness is bedrock, but so is time. Explanation runs on temporal rails.
  • Joshs
    6.7k
    ↪Wayfarer I agree with much of what he's saying, but with a Wittgensteinian twist, viz., consciousness is the bedrock hinge of reality. It's as fundamental as we are objects separate from other objects. It's the arational starting point of all that exists.Sam26

    For Bitbol and other phenomenologists we are not objects separate from other objects. Consciousness is the site of subject-object interaction. The subject is not a thing but one pole of the subject-object binary. If there is an ontological or metaphysical primitive for Bitbol or Husserl it is the structure of time consciousness. Wittgenstein doesn’t deal directly with temporality in this way, since he is not interested in ontological or metaphysical grounds, and his hinges do not function as such bedrocks.
  • Sam26
    3.2k
    You misunderstood me, but that's ok.
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    I agree with much of what he's saying, but with a Wittgensteinian twist, viz., consciousness is the bedrock hinge of reality. It's as fundamental as we are objects separate from other objects. It's the arational starting point of all that exists.Sam26

    Bitbol does often quote Wittgenstein, including the quote in the original post. But I agree with Joshs that it's a mistake to say that we as agents can considered as objects.
  • Gnomon
    4.4k

    Material conditions are anything that we can detect via the senses. Science tells us there were material conditions prior to humans.
    And, as predicted you didn't answer the question I posed re whether you believe that immaterial or disembodied consciousness is possible.
    Janus
    The Bitbol discussion is way over my head. So, I'll limit my unsolicited contribution to questions related to the Primacy of Consciousness (OP).

    The cosmological "fact" that human consciousness --- subjective experience of "material conditions" or abstract ideas --- is a latecomer in evolution, raises the question : what form did Fundamental Consciousness take "prior to humans"? If it was not Physical, was it Spiritual*1? Is "disembodied Consciousness" spiritual, as in Souls that exist before life and after death? Or was it simply Potential Platonic Form? Whatever that may be.

    Is there any language we can use here that does not commit us to inherently antagonistic Materialism vs Spiritualism*2? Is there any Philosophical middle ground between Religion and Science that is appropriate for this forum? :cool:


    *1. The scripture describing the Spirit moving over the water is Genesis 1:2, which states: "The earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters" (NIV). This passage depicts the Holy Spirit in a state of brooding or active, preparatory presence during creation.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=spirit+moving+over+the+water+bible+verse
    Note --- Would it be legitimate to describe that "preparatory" state as Potential, in a sense similar to the potential voltage of a AA battery prior to completion of a material conductive circuit?

    *2. The philosophy of consciousness explores the nature, origin, and structure of subjective experience—the "what it is like" to be a conscious being. It addresses the "hard problem" of why physical brain processes produce subjective feelings (qualia). Major theories range from materialism (physicalism) to dualism and panpsychism, analyzing how mental states relate to physical reality.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=consciousness+philosophy
    Note --- The Hard Problem seems to be related to agreeing on a definition of what Consciousness is essentially (i.e. disembodied ; a priori)*3.

    *3. Consciousness is regarded as a priori because it is the fundamental, self-evident foundation for all experience and knowledge, preceding empirical observation. René Descartes established that the immediate, subjective awareness of thinking ("I am conscious") cannot be doubted, making it a necessary truth independent of sensory experience.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=consciousness+a+priori
    Note --- Consciousness cannot be doubted by the aware Subject. But from an objective perspective outside the observer, C may not be so doubtless. Hence the problem of Other Minds.
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    The cosmological "fact" that human consciousness --- subjective experience of "material conditions" or abstract ideas --- is a latecomer in evolution, raises the question: what form did Fundamental Consciousness take "prior to humans"? If it was not Physical, was it Spiritual*1? Is "disembodied Consciousness" spiritual, as in Souls that exist before life and after death? Or was it simply Potential Platonic Form? Whatever that may be.Gnomon

    What form could it have, before it had form? :chin:

    This is obviously a difficult and even a paradoxical question. The question is, how to think about it? The scientific attitude is fundamentally conditioned by the requirement of objectivity: it has to seek explanations in terms of what is observable or measurable, or what can be inferred on the basis of observational data. But, as your quote #3 notes, consciousness is the prior condition for any observation or empirical theory whatever. This is why it is described as a problem for scientific accounts, as it is not objective in the scientific sense. That is the 'hard problem of consciousness' in a nutshell.

    Henri Bergson famously proposed that life was distinguished by an elan vital, an internal, creative impulse. But, almost without saying, such an 'impulse' could in no way be identified by science - what, after all, would you be looking for? How would you even define it? So 'elan vital' and 'vitalism' are generally laughed at nowadays.

    But I regard Bergson's idea of having at least metaphorical validity. Life and living things do in my view possess an irreducible quality, that is, something that resists explanation in physical or chemical terms. But that 'something' is again not a specific, measurable attribute. It is not objectively discernable. It is not really even 'a thing'. Hence the problem!

    There's a philosopher of biology that I really like, Stephen L Talbott, who published a great series of articles in The New Atlantis over a period of years.They can be reviewed here. The last in the series, What do Organisms Mean?, directly addresses this question in terms of causation and agency.

    Talbott notes that the singular differentiator of all life forms is the purposive nature of their activities - the fact that they display agency. And this goes right down to the most fundamental level, even the cellular level. And whereas physical causation - the kinds of causation described by physics and chemistry - can be given in completely non-intentional terms, the same cannot be said for the activities of organisms, which are intentional from the get-go:

    We commonly explain occurrences by saying one thing happened because of — due to the cause of — something else. But we can invoke very different sorts of causes in this way. For example, there is the because of physical law (the ball rolled down the hill because of gravity) and the because of reason (he laughed at me because I made a mistake). The former hinges upon the kind of necessity we commonly associate with physical causation; the latter has to do with what makes sense within a context of meaning.

    Any nuance of meaning coming from any part of the larger context can ground the because of reason. “I blushed because I saw a hint of suspicion in his eyes.” But I might not have blushed if his left hand had slightly shifted in its characteristic, reassuring way, or if a rebellious line from a novel I read in college had flashed through my mind, or if a certain painful experience in my childhood had been different. In a meaningful context, there are infinite possible ways for any detail, however remote, to be connected to, colored by, or transformed by any other detail. There is no sure way to wall off any part of the context from all the rest.

    He goes on to say:

    What distinguishes the language of biology from that of physics is its free and full use of the because of reason. Where the inanimate world lends itself in some regards to application of a “deadened,” skeletal language — a language that perhaps too easily invites us to think in terms of mechanisms — the organism requires us to recognize a full and rich drama of meaning.

    So - I'm drawn to the idea, found in phenomenology, that the emergence of organic life is the rudimentary manifestation of intentionality. I don't know if it's meaningful to think about how it might exist in the abstract, because it is never encountered in the abstract. But whatever life or mind or consciousness is, it resists explanation in terms of lower level descriptions derived from physics and chemistry, as it has an intrinsic intentionality that non-organic matter does not possess.

    On Purpose (Medium friend link.)
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.7k
    *2. The philosophy of consciousness explores the nature, origin, and structure of subjective experience—the "what it is like" to be a conscious being. It addresses the "hard problem" of why physical brain processes produce subjective feelings (qualia).Gnomon

    The brain has an internal format or 'language' that we can readily see - or redly see, such as the quale of redness. This can only be for representing states in a way that supports: …

    … I will do some research and report back. “Experience” as an extra ingredient will be shown not to be so.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.7k
    Major theories range from materialism (physicalism) to dualism and panpsychism, analyzing how mental states relate to physical reality.Gnomon

    Intro

    A “solution” to the hard problem has to do one of two things:
    Add a new fundamental ingredient to physics (dualism, panpsychism, primacy), or show the hard problem is a mistake in how we’re framing the target—a category error—and then replace it with a viable research program.

    Chalmers’ “hard problem” is: why and how do physical processes have phenomenal character—why is there “something it is like”?

    The hard problem feels hard because we implicitly treat consciousness like a glow added on top of brain activity.

    Dissolution: the “glow” is not an extra property. It is what it is like for a system to be running a certain kind of self-model—one that makes some internal states seem immediately present, private, and ineffable.

    This view-point is often called illusionism (not “consciousness is unreal,” but “the extra Cartesian glow is a misdescription”).

    Neuroscientific Case Studies are shown at the end of this report.

    Reveal
    Overview: Conscious experience equals a controlled, integrated, self-updating model of the world, the body, and (crucially) the system’s own attention and valuational priorities, used to guide flexible action and report.

    Mechanistically, this aligns with the mainstream “workspace” idea: contents become conscious when they’re globally available/broadcast to many systems (memory, language, planning, control).

    “Qualia” are not spooky atoms of redness. They’re the brain’s internal syntax & semantics for representing brain states in a way that supports fine discrimination, stable memory hooks, rapid report, and value-weighted decision.

    The model is built for internal control, not for external inspection, and thus it feels private, and also because it is, since the ‘assembly’ levels of the neurological are done and past, beneath, and so there is no ‘referral’ to them needed, nor could they be understood in their neural firings.

    It feels ineffable because the system can’t fully “open up” its own low-level encoding into the same public format it uses for speech.

    It feels like a given because the model treats its own current winning representation as the present.
    The hard problem’s “why is there something it’s like?” becomes “why does this architecture produce the conviction of something-it’s-like?”—and that is answerable in cognitive/neural terms.
    Instead of “explain the glow,” the aim to explain and predict, from mechanism, these measurable signatures:

    - Global availability (what becomes reportable and action-guiding)
    - Integration + irreducibility constraints (how much the system functions as one)
    - Self-model of attention (why experiences seem present/owned)
    - Counterfactual stability (why a percept seems the same across shifts in viewpoint/conditions)
    - Metacognitive access (why we can say “I am experiencing X”)

    When a theory can take brain-state data and predict these properties (including when they break: anesthesia, seizures, split-brain-like dissociations, neglect, blindsight-style phenomena), the “hard problem” has been functionally and explanatorily dismissed.

    It solves the hard problem as a scientific problem by showing the demand for an extra non-structural “glow” is a mistaken extra requirement—science explains structure, dynamics, and function, and consciousness is a special case of those, not an add-on.

    It doesn’t prove that dualism/panpsychism are false. It argues they’re unnecessary once you stop reifying the “glow.”

    Dissolving the Hard Problem of Consciousness: A Structural–Process Account of Phenomenality as perspectival identity.

    Abstract

    The “hard problem” of consciousness asks why and how physical processes give rise to phenomenal experience. The problem arises from a category error: it treats phenomenality as an extra ontological property requiring explanation beyond structural, functional, and dynamical facts. Phenomenal experience is identical to the internal perspective generated by certain self-modeling, value-integrating processes.

    Once this identity is made explicit, the hard problem dissolves and is replaced by a tractable research program focused on mechanisms of global availability, self-modeling, and value-weighted integration. This account aligns naturally with a process metaphysics inspired by Alfred North Whitehead, without requiring panpsychism or non-physical properties.

    Phenomenality is better understood as a perspectival identity rather than an extra feature. Phenomenal experience is what it is like for a system to instantiate a certain kind of internal model—namely, one that represents its own states as present, salient, and action-guiding.

    The demand to explain why such states “feel like something” is equivalent to demanding an explanation of why a first-person model is first-person in addition to being a model. This is a category mistake: first-person-ness is not an added property; it is the mode of access intrinsic to the model.
    Why the Illusion of an Extra Explanandum Persists…

    Three features of cognitive architecture generate the intuition that something extra is present:
    - Representational opacity. Systems cannot introspect the low-level encoding of their own states, only their outputs.
    - Self-modeling of attention. The system represents some internal states as immediately present and owned.
    - Compression in report. Rich internal states are mapped to sparse linguistic labels (“red,” “pain”), creating an appearance of ineffability.

    These features produce the judgment that phenomenal properties are irreducible. But the judgment does not entail the existence of non-structural properties.

    Identity, Not Reduction: This view does not reduce consciousness away. It asserts an identity:
    - Phenomenal experience equals the operation of a globally integrated, self-modeling, value-sensitive process from the system’s internal perspective.

    - Just as “being money” is not something over and above functioning within certain social and representational systems, “being experienced” is not something over and above functioning within certain cognitive architectures.

    Once the hard problem is dissolved, it is replaced by concrete, empirical questions:
    - Global availability: What mechanisms allow certain contents to coordinate memory, action, and report?
    - Integration and dominance: Why does one representational coalition win over others at a time?
    - Self-modeling: How does the system represent its own representational activity?
    - Value-weighting: How do affective and motivational systems bias integration?
    - Counterfactual stability: Why do experiences appear invariant across changes in viewpoint and context?
    These questions are already under active investigation.

    Whiteheadian Process Reframing…

    Alfred North Whitehead’s notion of prehension—events taking account of other events—offers a metaphysical vocabulary consistent with the above identity.

    On this view: Physical events integrate causal influences. Biological systems integrate with value (survival). Nervous systems integrate with prediction. Conscious systems integrate their own acts of integration.

    Phenomenal immediacy corresponds to a temporally unified, value-dominant integration—what Whitehead called “subjective immediacy.” No new substances are introduced; only increasing structural recursion.

    Objection 1: This explains reports, not experience itself.
    Reply: Reports are part of experience’s functional profile. To demand explanation of experience beyond all structural and behavioral consequences is to posit an explanandum with no explanatory role.

    Objection 2: The identity claim is stipulative.
    Reply: All successful reductions proceed by identity claims (e.g., heat = mean kinetic energy). The burden is not to justify identity a priori, but to show no explanatory work remains undone.

    Objection 3: This denies the reality of qualia.
    Reply: It denies their reification, not their existence. Qualia are real as internally accessible representational formats.

    Conclusion

    The hard problem of consciousness arises from treating phenomenality as an ontological addition rather than a perspectival identity. Once experience is understood as the internal aspect of certain self-modeling, value-integrating processes, no explanatory residue remains.

    Consciousness is not physical process plus something else. It is what physical process is like when it models itself from within. The hard problem dissolves—not by denying experience, but by understanding what kind of thing experience is.

    Neuroscientific Case Studies Supporting the Dissolution

    If phenomenal consciousness were an ontologically extra “glow,” dissociable from structure and function, we would expect it to remain stable across significant neural reorganizations, or to appear without corresponding changes in access, integration, or self-modeling. Instead, clinical and experimental neuroscience shows that phenomenality tracks specific architectural features—and fractures exactly where those features break.

    Blindsight: Experience Without Access Is Not Experience, Patients with damage to primary visual cortex (V1) can correctly discriminate visual stimuli in their blind field while reporting no visual experience. They insist they are guessing—yet perform above chance.

    Key facts: Visual information is processed via subcortical pathways. Discrimination and action can occur. Global availability and reportability are absent.
    Implication: If phenomenality were independent of access, blindsight patients should still experience “raw feels” of vision. They do not. What disappears is not processing, but experience-as-presence.
    This directly supports the identity claim: conscious experience requires not mere information processing, but integration into a self-model that treats contents as present and owned.

    Split-Brain Patients: Two Experiences, Not One Glow: After corpus callosotomy, patients exhibit two largely independent streams of perception and action.
    - Each hemisphere can guide behavior independently.
    - Each can answer questions (via speech or pointing).
    - Experiences diverge without contradiction.

    Implication: Phenomenality divides exactly where integration divides. There is no single, indivisible “field of consciousness” floating above the brain. This contradicts substance or property dualism but follows naturally from a process-based identity: each integrated, self-modeling subsystem instantiates its own perspective.

    Hemispatial Neglect: Experience Is Value-Weighted, Not World-Complete: Patients with right parietal damage ignore the left side of space—not only perceptually, but conceptually and motivationally.
    - Sensory signals from the neglected side may still reach cortex.
    - Patients deny ownership or relevance of those signals.
    - Neglected stimuli can influence behavior unconsciously.

    Implication: Experience is not determined by sensory input alone, but by value-weighted dominance in the system’s integrative hierarchy. Phenomenality follows salience, not stimulation.

    Anesthesia: Gradual Loss of Integration, Not Sudden Loss of Glow. Under general anesthesia, consciousness fades gradually, not abruptly.
    - Early loss of long-range cortical connectivity.
    - Breakdown of feedback loops.
    - Local processing often persists.

    Implication: Experience disappears as integration and self-modeling degrade, even while neural activity continues. This strongly favors structural accounts over ontological additions.

    Disorders of Selfhood: Depersonalization and Dissociation. In depersonalization disorder, patients report experiences that feel unreal, distant, or unowned.
    - Sensory and cognitive processing remain intact.
    - Metacognitive and affective integration is altered.
    - Patients describe “experience without me.”

    Implication: Phenomenality includes not just content, but ownership and immediacy—features of the self-model. Alter the model, and the “feel” changes accordingly.

    Pain Asymbolia: When Pain Hurts Without Hurting, Patients with damage to insular or cingulate regions report feeling pain sensations without distress.
    - Sensory-discriminative aspects preserved.
    - Affective-motivational components absent.
    - Patients report pain but do not care.

    Implication: Qualia are not atomic. They are structured integrations of sensation and value. Remove valuation, and the “what-it’s-like” changes in lawful ways.

    Synthesis: Why These Cases Dissolve the Hard Problem
    Across all cases, the same pattern appears:
    Neural Change leads to Phenomenal Change
    Loss of global integration leads to Loss of experience
    Loss of self-model access leads to Loss of ownership
    Loss of valuation leads to Loss of affective tone
    Loss of unity leads to Multiplication of perspectives

    There is no residue—no phenomenality floating free of architecture.

    These cases demonstrate that:
    - Experience tracks integration, access, and self-modeling.
    - Phenomenality fractures, fades, or transforms exactly where structure does.
    - No additional explanatory layer is required.

    Thus, the hard problem’s demand—“Why does all this processing feel like something?”—misfires. Neuroscience shows that feeling is the internal aspect of this kind of processing, not a further fact.

    Strengthened Conclusion

    Neuroscientific evidence does not merely correlate brain states with consciousness; it maps the internal structure of experience itself. Once we recognize phenomenality as a perspectival identity rather than an ontological addition, the hard problem dissolves.

    Consciousness is not mysterious because it is nonphysical. It is misunderstood because it is what complex physical systems are like when they model themselves as subjects.
  • Gnomon
    4.4k
    What form could it have, before it had form? :chin:Wayfarer
    For the purposes of this reply, I would reword that question as : What Platonic Form could Consciousness have, before it had Physical Configuration?

    Bitbol argues against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis. This, despite the evidence that all Life on Earth does have a material basis. So I assume his Primordial Consciousness is Abstract instead of Concrete, and a Verb, not a Noun, hence also pre-material. Does that make sense to you? A common pre-scientific understanding of conscious abstract entities is a disembodied Ghost : life & mind without matter. But a more modern & scientific term for abstract meaning/knowing is "Information". And 21st century science has equated Information with Energy*1. Both being abstractions without material substance*2.

    So I would answer your question about the pre-physical form of Consciousness with Causation : the power to transform ; the Event before the Effect. The most familiar form of Causation today is invisible Energy, which Einstein equated with tangible Matter, albeit in the form of mathematical Mass and vector Velocity : E = MC^2. A philosophical interpretation of that equation is that Matter is slowed-down & condensed Energy*3. Hence, the existence of matter depends on pre-existent power to transform stuff : Causation.

    Likewise, at the turn of the 20th century, Henri Bergson postulated an answer, related to the Consciousness question, with a Latin term for Life Energy*4. Yes. I know that the notion of "Life Energy" is taboo for Materialists. But does the equation of Information, Causation, Energy, and Consciousness make sense, in the light of Quantum Physics and Information Theory? Does Life make sense as an extension of Causation, and Mind as supervenient upon Life & Matter?

    Consciousness is obviously a necessary pre-requisite for Science & Philosophy*5. But could it also be essential for physical existence? How would Bitbol answer that question? :smile:

    PS___ Yes, I continue to harp-on my Information-based thesis.



    *1. Mental Information and Physical Energy :
    Information is not technically energy itself, but it is deeply linked to energy through physical processes. While information refers to the arrangement of matter or data, it requires energy to be created, stored, and erased, following thermodynamic laws. Recent findings, such as the Landauer principle and Maxwell's demon experiments, suggest that information and energy are interchangeable, meaning information can be converted into work.
    https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-658-40862-6
    Note --- See image below

    *2. Energy is considered an abstract, scalar, and foundational concept in science, representing a conserved quantity rather than a tangible substance.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=energy+is+abstract+concept

    *3. The concept that matter is "slowed-down and condensed energy" is a philosophical, artistic, and simplified interpretation of physics, often linked to Einstein's [E=mc^2] equation, where matter and energy are convertible.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Matter+is+slowed-down+%26+condensed+Energy.

    *4. Henri Bergson’s élan vital, or "vital impetus," is a philosophical concept introduced in his 1907 work, Creative Evolution, representing the fundamental, non-mechanical force driving all life and evolution. It is an anti-entropic, creative, and dynamic energy that drives living systems to increase in complexity and diversity.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=bergson+elan+vital

    *5. Consciousness stands as the primary "given," enabling the subsequent understanding of the world, making it a foundational, a priori element of existence.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=consciousness+a+priori
    Note --- This concept is relevant to the Intelligibility threads.


    978-3-658-40862-6.jpg?as=webp
  • Gnomon
    4.4k
    The brain has an internal format or 'language' that we can readily see - or redly see, such as the quale of redness. This can only be for representing states in a way that supports: …
    … I will do some research and report back. “Experience” as an extra ingredient will be shown not to be so.
    PoeticUniverse
    The brain's "internal language" is a set of abstractions (ideas ; qualia) filtered from objective sensory experience (400 - 480 terahertz physical vibrations) to the subjective feeling of redness (e.g warmness associated with infrared heat). The "words" are mini-models (representations) of things & events. But how does gray matter convert incoming physical data into mental images? Experience is not an "extra ingredient", but a snapshot model of external reality, to tuck away in the album of memory for future reference. That mysterious transformation/translation from concrete (foreign language) to abstract (native language) is the Hard Problem of Mind & Matter. :smile:
  • Wayfarer
    26.2k
    Bitbol argues against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis.Gnomon

    Cite anything from the original post that makes this claim.

    What you're doing is trying to paraphrase what you think Bitbol is saying, but in doing that, you're also misrepresenting it. You're forcing it into a Procrustean bed.

    'A Procrustean bed is a metaphor for an arbitrary, rigid standard to which conformity is forced, regardless of individual variations or natural differences. Originating from Greek mythology, where the bandit Procrustes stretched or cut guests to fit a bed, the term describes ruthlessly forcing people or ideas into a pre-set mold.'

    The mold, in this case, is your idiosyncratic 'enformationism'.
  • Gnomon
    4.4k
    Cite anything from the original post that makes this claim.Wayfarer
    I cite the post as a whole. I haven't read any of Bitbol's work.
    What you're doing is trying to paraphrase what you think Bitbol is saying, but in doing that, you're also misrepresenting it. You're forcing it into a Procrustean bed.Wayfarer

    :smile:

    The mold, in this case, is your idiosyncratic 'enformationism'.Wayfarer
    Excerpts from Gnomon post :
    "PS___ Yes, I continue to harp-on my [idiosyncratic]*1 Information-based thesis."

    "Bitbol argues against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis."
    Do you deny that interpretation of his position?*2*3 :cool:


    *1.Idiosyncratic describes a unique, peculiar, or highly individual habit, mannerism, or characteristic that sets a person or thing apart from the norm.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=idiosyncratic
    Note --- The "norm" in this case is scientific Materialism.

    *2. Michel Bitbol argues against the materialist view that consciousness is an emergent property or byproduct of the brain, proposing instead that conscious experience is existentially and methodologically primary. He contends that trying to derive consciousness from matter reverses the actual order of dependence, as any material, objective world is only recognized through the pre-existing field of conscious experience
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Bitbol+argues+against+the+view+that+conscious+experience+derives+from+a+material+basis

    *3 Bitbol uses quantum physics to show that the "measurement problem" often brings the observer back into the picture
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=Bitbol+argues+against+the+view+that+conscious+experience+derives+from+a+material+basis
    Note --- my own thesis also "uses" Quantum Physics as evidence of the power of Consciousness. But it combines physical power (energy) with the metaphysical theory of Information (meaning).
  • Gnomon
    4.4k
    What you're doing is trying to paraphrase what you think Bitbol is saying, but in doing that, you're also misrepresenting it. You're forcing it into a Procrustean bed. . . . .
    The mold, in this case, is your idiosyncratic 'enformationism'
    Wayfarer

    From a previous post :
    The Bitbol discussion is way over my head. So, I'll limit my unsolicited contribution to questions related to the Primacy of Consciousness (OP).Gnomon
    Actually, my second post, that you are reacting to, is an attempt to paraphrase what you said about Bitbol. Since I had never heard of Bitbol, I searched for an overview on Google. And that's where the summary in question came from. I didn't intend to cut-off his legs to make him fit my own thesis. But, yes, everything I say on this forum is enformed by my own personal philosophical worldview : "the mold".

    Although I highly respect your views on this forum, my background is very different from yours. For example, I have no formal training in Philosophy, and had almost no occasion to engage in philosophical dialog. (My religious training was mostly in biblical exegesis) So the way I express concepts may sound strange to your ears. What university training I had was mostly in the Natural Sciences : Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, etc.

    The inspiration for my "idiosyncratic" Enformationism thesis was Quantum Physics and Information Theory. Just a few years before I was retired by the Great Recession of 2008, I read an article by a quantum physicist, who exclaimed : "It's all information!". So that set me off on a quest to understand what he meant by that. The Bitbol "paraphrase" you objected to --- against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis --- has been a topic of many of my recent posts on this forum. And I assumed that you would agree.

    After retirement, I discovered The Philosophy Forum, and learned the hard way, how to talk to philosophers, about metaphysical questions. One thing that became clear is that some of the most vocal posters have a very dim view of Metaphysics, along with the assumption that Consciousness is matter-based, with no spiritual or metaphysical priors. So, I spend an inordinate amount of time translating metaphysical (mental ; ideal) concepts into physical (material ; real0 language.

    Although the Enformationism thesis is indeed idiosyncratic, it doesn't stand alone. I think you are familiar with Astrophysicist/Cosmologist Paul Davies. His use of Information theory, in a long series of physics books, to explain physical/metaphysical reality was a primary source for the thesis. And in the book linked below*1, he associates with physicists, philosophers, and theologians to discuss how post-Shannon Information theory sheds light on both physics and metaphysics. I suppose that may be one reason I call my personal philosophy : BothAnd*2, instead of Either/Or. For example : Consciousness has both Material and Metaphysical grounds. :smile:


    *1. Information and the Nature of Reality :
    From Physics to Metaphysics
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/information-and-the-nature-of-reality/811A28839BB7B63AAB63DC355FBE8C81

    *2. BothAnd Blog
    Since it includes the principles of Complementarity, Reciprocity, and Holism, BothAnd can’t completely ignore other points of view. But it can be skeptical of belief systems that result in violent clashes between opposing adherents.
    https://bothandblog9.enformationism.info/page2.html
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