boundless
That’s true, although it’s worth noting that Aristotle’s unmoved mover does not function as a source of the world’s intelligibility. As νοήσεως νόησις, it thinks only itself, and does not impose form or order on the cosmos. For Aristotle, the intelligibility of nature is intrinsic to substances themselves rather than conferred by a divine intellect contemplating or structuring the world. — Esse Quam Videri
boundless
Well, my first reaction is to examine the question to work out what will count as an answer. — Ludwig V
A disordered pile of books is only chaotic because it is not ordered in a way that is interesting to us. There are in fact, endless ways in which they could be ordered. Our problem is only to pick which order we impose on them. Radical chaos is different. In such a world, we would be unable to identify any object, process or event; there could be no constituents to be ordered or chaotic. — Ludwig V
Fair enough. — Ludwig V
Esse Quam Videri
I'm not so sure about this. While God is not seen as an efficient cause of entities, it is seen as their final cause, IIRC. Given this, I'm not sure how you can safely say that their intelligibility isn't rooted in the Unmoved Mover according to him. — boundless
Janus
I’m not saying that anyone should believe it, or that I believe it. But that we should at least acknowledge that it was believed by all the adherents of these religions movements and is depicted en masse in their iconography and teachings. And was accepted as true by the whole population prior to the Cartesian divide. — Punshhh
All I’m saying is that if we are going to consider transcendence, we have to somehow translate what is revealed to people during revelation into something amenable to philosophical discourse. That there is no other way. It is rather like Kant’s neumenon. Philosophy accepts the neumenon into discursive discourse, why not transcendence? It’s rather like a positive form of neumenon. — Punshhh
For Husserl and the other thinkers I mentioned there are no thing-in-themselves. Not just because humans or animals must be present for them to be perceived, but because a world seen in itself, apart from humans or animals, is a temporal flux of qualitative change with respect to itself. — Joshs
Spinoza, yes. Hegel and Whitehead, no. For the latter two the idea of mathematical truths that are utterly independent of history, world, relation, or realization is not just false, it is philosophically incoherent. — Joshs
Ludwig V
I don't find a clear meaning in the question whether the world is intelligible or not. I was trying to extract some sense from it, by paying attention to cases, rather than large generalities.In other words, the intelligibility of the world to you is a 'given' that isn't explainable in terms of something more fundamental. Am I misunderstanding you? — boundless
Punshhh
Yes, there would have been a few deeper thinkers who had thought about this, but the world they were living in was steeped in the belief, to such an extent that it was as accepted as real as water and air.*I don't think this assessment is accurate if the Ancient Greeks philosophers are taken into account.
Yes, altered states could suffice, but it leaves out the important thing about revelation. That the person is contacted by a being, who is in a transcendent relationship to himself. This requires something called hosting, in which the person is temporarily transfigured, or “sees through” the eyes of the transcendent being. Is taken up into heaven, so to speak and witnesses heaven. That when the person comes back down to earth, what they witnessed is no longer explainable, or conceivable, but is couched in a conceptual language of this world and their terrestrial conditioning. Hence allegory, now if that person discusses their experience with someone else who has witnessed similar, they are holding a discursive conversation about a transcendent state.Perhaps, but 'revelation' is a loaded term―I prefer 'altered states' or 'non-ordinary states'. Kant's noumenon is specifically defined as that of which no experience at all is possible
Two people who have experienced revelation can hold a discursive discussion about it.The question is whether adequate discursive articulation is possible.
I agree entirely, which may be a doorway through which it can be discussed.In fact I think the same about ordinary states―they are made to seem ordinary by the assumption that our talk in terms of identities adequately characterizes them, captures their nature.
boundless
Does that help? — Ludwig V
Janus
*I could go on at length about how a culture, particularly a historic culture, where everyone believes something without question. Is very different to what we experience in our disparate culture. Magic does happen, religious narratives do come to life. I witnessed such myself in India. — Punshhh
Tom Storm
There is certainly a power to collective belief. — Janus
Punshhh
Wayfarer
Wayfarer
Joshs
The transpersonal subject is not solipsistic - it is not 'the individual consciousness creating reality'. Rather, it's the shared structures of rationality, perception, and measurement that together constitute the conditions for any subject. Accordingly, the 'veiled subject' is transcendental/transpersonal, not psychological — Wayfarer
Wayfarer
Sam26
Joshs
↪Wayfarer I agree with much of what he's saying, but with a Wittgensteinian twist, viz., consciousness is the bedrock hinge of reality. It's as fundamental as we are objects separate from other objects. It's the arational starting point of all that exists. — Sam26
Wayfarer
I agree with much of what he's saying, but with a Wittgensteinian twist, viz., consciousness is the bedrock hinge of reality. It's as fundamental as we are objects separate from other objects. It's the arational starting point of all that exists. — Sam26
Gnomon
The Bitbol discussion is way over my head. So, I'll limit my unsolicited contribution to questions related to the Primacy of Consciousness (OP).Material conditions are anything that we can detect via the senses. Science tells us there were material conditions prior to humans.
And, as predicted you didn't answer the question I posed re whether you believe that immaterial or disembodied consciousness is possible. — Janus
Wayfarer
The cosmological "fact" that human consciousness --- subjective experience of "material conditions" or abstract ideas --- is a latecomer in evolution, raises the question: what form did Fundamental Consciousness take "prior to humans"? If it was not Physical, was it Spiritual*1? Is "disembodied Consciousness" spiritual, as in Souls that exist before life and after death? Or was it simply Potential Platonic Form? Whatever that may be. — Gnomon
We commonly explain occurrences by saying one thing happened because of — due to the cause of — something else. But we can invoke very different sorts of causes in this way. For example, there is the because of physical law (the ball rolled down the hill because of gravity) and the because of reason (he laughed at me because I made a mistake). The former hinges upon the kind of necessity we commonly associate with physical causation; the latter has to do with what makes sense within a context of meaning.
Any nuance of meaning coming from any part of the larger context can ground the because of reason. “I blushed because I saw a hint of suspicion in his eyes.” But I might not have blushed if his left hand had slightly shifted in its characteristic, reassuring way, or if a rebellious line from a novel I read in college had flashed through my mind, or if a certain painful experience in my childhood had been different. In a meaningful context, there are infinite possible ways for any detail, however remote, to be connected to, colored by, or transformed by any other detail. There is no sure way to wall off any part of the context from all the rest.
What distinguishes the language of biology from that of physics is its free and full use of the because of reason. Where the inanimate world lends itself in some regards to application of a “deadened,” skeletal language — a language that perhaps too easily invites us to think in terms of mechanisms — the organism requires us to recognize a full and rich drama of meaning.
PoeticUniverse
*2. The philosophy of consciousness explores the nature, origin, and structure of subjective experience—the "what it is like" to be a conscious being. It addresses the "hard problem" of why physical brain processes produce subjective feelings (qualia). — Gnomon
PoeticUniverse
Major theories range from materialism (physicalism) to dualism and panpsychism, analyzing how mental states relate to physical reality. — Gnomon
Gnomon
For the purposes of this reply, I would reword that question as : What Platonic Form could Consciousness have, before it had Physical Configuration?What form could it have, before it had form? :chin: — Wayfarer
Gnomon
The brain's "internal language" is a set of abstractions (ideas ; qualia) filtered from objective sensory experience (400 - 480 terahertz physical vibrations) to the subjective feeling of redness (e.g warmness associated with infrared heat). The "words" are mini-models (representations) of things & events. But how does gray matter convert incoming physical data into mental images? Experience is not an "extra ingredient", but a snapshot model of external reality, to tuck away in the album of memory for future reference. That mysterious transformation/translation from concrete (foreign language) to abstract (native language) is the Hard Problem of Mind & Matter. :smile:The brain has an internal format or 'language' that we can readily see - or redly see, such as the quale of redness. This can only be for representing states in a way that supports: …
… I will do some research and report back. “Experience” as an extra ingredient will be shown not to be so. — PoeticUniverse
Wayfarer
Bitbol argues against the view that conscious experience derives from a material basis. — Gnomon
Gnomon
I cite the post as a whole. I haven't read any of Bitbol's work.Cite anything from the original post that makes this claim. — Wayfarer
What you're doing is trying to paraphrase what you think Bitbol is saying, but in doing that, you're also misrepresenting it. You're forcing it into a Procrustean bed. — Wayfarer
Excerpts from Gnomon post :The mold, in this case, is your idiosyncratic 'enformationism'. — Wayfarer
Gnomon
What you're doing is trying to paraphrase what you think Bitbol is saying, but in doing that, you're also misrepresenting it. You're forcing it into a Procrustean bed. . . . .
The mold, in this case, is your idiosyncratic 'enformationism' — Wayfarer
Actually, my second post, that you are reacting to, is an attempt to paraphrase what you said about Bitbol. Since I had never heard of Bitbol, I searched for an overview on Google. And that's where the summary in question came from. I didn't intend to cut-off his legs to make him fit my own thesis. But, yes, everything I say on this forum is enformed by my own personal philosophical worldview : "the mold".The Bitbol discussion is way over my head. So, I'll limit my unsolicited contribution to questions related to the Primacy of Consciousness (OP). — Gnomon
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