Wallows
8.2k
I don't feel as though all the alternatives were exhausted before her final decision.
Like what?
MDMA assisted psychotherapy, prescription antidepressants, more therapy. So on so forth. — Wallows
And "death" is a decision that each individual should be able to make for him/herself...without the intrusion of people like you. — Frank Apisa
But NKBJ will not be able to acknowledge it. — Frank Apisa
The analogy is appropriate to the feelings of the person the receiving end, rather than the feelings of the performer of the act. Interesting that you seem to regard the feelings and motivation of the rapist or medic more significant that those of the victim/patient. But from their pov both are violations of the body by forcible penetration of an intimate orifice against one's will, and in such a case, forced feeding would almost certainly be experienced as a third rape. — unenlightened
NKBJ
1k
And "death" is a decision that each individual should be able to make for him/herself...without the intrusion of people like you. — Frank Apisa
IF that person is in full control of their mental capacities, the case is more convincing. However, not when we're talking about a child and a mentally ill person who is likely unable to think clearly. In that case we have the overriding duty to save that person from themselves. — NKBJ
NKBJ
1k
But NKBJ will not be able to acknowledge it. — Frank Apisa
You are unable, I think, to acknowledge, that a person can be unable to think clearly. Perhaps you are in favor of letting children choose to use heroin as well? Or I suppose you would advocate for getting rid of all care facilities for those with mental disabilities?
You, very simply, are not being empathetic to the various states of mind that can befall a person and are superimposing your current ability to make autonomous decisions on others. — NKBJ
You conveniently neglect the main difference I pointed out: — NKBJ
But perhaps you think oral vaccines are rape too. — NKBJ
For someone who has been raped twice, having another forced penetration of another orifice is liable to be traumatic to the extent of putting in her mind, the medics on a par with the rapists; I do not think oral vaccines are rape, but I do think forcible administration is an assault unjustified in most circumstances where the individual is capable of giving or withholding consent. — unenlightened
noted that it related to the feelings and motivation of the actor, and not the feelings of the recipient of their action. — unenlightened
Hers was the dreadful story of a teenager with a desperate mental illness who starved herself to death.
She had once enquired about euthanasia without telling her parents - but was turned away, considered too young and presumably curable.
Euthanasia by a doctor is legal under strict conditions in the Netherlands, but this was not one of those cases.
...
Noa Pothoven was not given the lethal cocktail of drugs provided - in a drink or by injection - when someone has been granted the right to die.
She went on hunger strike and was being fed through a tube. Eventually her family accepted her wish to die, so they stopped forcing her to stay alive and instead used palliative care to make her final days as peaceful and bearable as possible.
My guess ( and I could be wrong) is that you over simplify the prohibition against forced medical care in The Netherlands, as I assume there is a way to obtain a court order to impose care on those suffering psychological issues. If the rule is that the severely depressed must be permitted to live out the consequences of their self-neglect in all cases, the Dutch rule needs to be reconsidered. — Hanover
Hypothetically, would you have supported euthanasia in this case? — Hanover
Even for adults suffering from depression euthanasia is often not open to them and results in a significant number of grisly suicides. I would like it to be better available for people who mentally suffer unbearably without any chance of improvement but I have no idea how realistic that is without it becoming to freely available. — Benkei
Would you allowed her to be euthanized given her several year history of serious depression? — Hanover
Would you have forced care upon her on the basis she posed a threat to herself (this seems more problematic to@Benkei and unenlightened than me. ). — Hanover
All kinds of interventions for enteral or parenteral feeding against the will of the mentally competent hunger striker are to be considered as "forced feeding”. Forced feeding is never ethically acceptable. Even if intended to benefit, feeding accompanied by threats, coercion, force or use of physical restraints is a form of inhuman and degrading treatment.
Only if you can show that she was incapable of making rational decisions and therefore legally incapacitated, in which case the decision would fall to her parents. Being depressed does not make you incapacitated though. In any case, het parents supported her to refuse treatment. — Benkei
— Benkei
Any easy call given the fact she ended up starving herself: yes, if only to avoid the suffering of starvation and dehydration itself. A shit life that ended shitty as well, could've at least avoided the shitty end. — Benkei
:I don't know, but according to the World Medical Association — Michael
If you're a danger to yourself, you can have care forced upon you: https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/forced-hospitalization-three-types — Hanover
As a general matter, life's not shit. That might be where we have a fundamental disagreement. I'm not suggesting there's not an extreme case of just an incredibly horrible life, but Noa's case isn't one of them. — Hanover
I thought you were a lawyer; forced hospitalisation is not forced treatment. , — Benkei
In any case, het condition was not acute so the necessary requirement for her to be an immediate threat to herself wouldn't even stand so forced hospitalisation wouldn't even be possible. — Benkei
I don't doubt she suffered terribly. I question the objective conclusion, which is whether she could expect recovery that might relieve her of what is only a temporary problem.I think here I'll respect the primacy of experience. You might not find it extreme enough, but it was to her and that's the measure. Her suffering; not your arm chair estimation of what constitutes unbearable suffering. — Benkei
Yeah, so under that psychological assessment, then doesn't this lead to the conclusion that she was non compos mentis? — Wallows
As it is, the Dutch health care system is one of the best in the world and absolutely free for children up to 18 years old. — Benkei
I think in a situation of crisis, one would tend to intervene, but the length of time in this case seems to indicate that many things have been tried and have failed. So it is not a question of intervening or not, so much as a question of stopping intervening when many interventions have failed utterly. — unenlightened
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