• iolo
    126
    2.1k

    ↪iolo Culture isn't monolithic and certainly not defined by language alone. Western culture overarches several languages. At the same time the culture in my city is distinct from other areas in the Netherlands, which is still Dutch culture. And just look at the history of the development of the guitar (or most any other instrument for that matter) that cultural differences are fluid. Cultures exchange, change, copy and merge over time.

    Given how culture has comes about, resistance to cultural change is misplaced.
    Benkei

    Who said it was monolithic? It is , however, hugely affected by the language in which it is experienced.
    The Westminster regime has tried to destroy our language and culture for five hundred years. You think we should lie down and die now it's so much feebler?
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    I'm pointing out there isn't a clear line between various cultures and you reply with "our culture", "our language" and us vs. them and how it shouldn't change: that is a interpretation of culture as monolithic par excellence.

    I'm not answering your question because I'm not going to speak for an entire "culture" as to what they should do. That would be hubris.
  • Tim3003
    69
    When he asks for the extension there is going to be an almighty push to put the blame on everyone else trying to thwart Brexit, the will of the people. The idea being that it will build up a head of steam and give him a majority in the looming general election.Punshhh

    Well it's already looking like the EU arent going to bend to Boris's will. It must be time for J R Mogg to pipe up about the Benn act which prevents no deal allowing the EU to play hard-ball in the negotiations. I almost wish Boris could negotiate with no-deal really on the table to see what the result would be - maybe with a secret agreement with parliament to stop no deal at the last moment..

    As for the election. I think if Boris fails to take the UK out on Oct 31st his election chances will be hit. At least some of those who thought he could get Brexit done and wasn't just another dithering politician may think again..
  • iolo
    126
    ↪iolo I'm pointing out there isn't a clear line between various cultures and you reply with "our culture", "our language" and us vs. them and how it shouldn't change: that is a interpretation of culture as monolithic par excellence.

    I'm not answering your question because I'm not going to speak for an entire "culture" as to what they should do. That would be hubris.
    Benkei

    Who asked you to reply for 'an entire culture'? To instance the other two languages/cultures I know passably well, would you wish seriously to argue that there was nothing but vocabulary and grammar to distinguish culturally between English-speakers, French-speakers and Chinese-speakers (National Language ones)? Like so many supporters of capitalism, you do seem to spend a lot of effort in trying to divide real people while contending you do the opposite, by bullying minorities. It seems to me pretty sick to identify oneself with what has been done in Westminster over the long, disgusting years, incidentally.
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    Like so many supporters of capitalism,iolo

    :rofl:
  • Punshhh
    765
    The blame game has started. Downing Street briefed this morning that in a phone call with Angela Merkel lastnight, she had said that a deal was overwhelmingly unlikely. So No10 says it's pulling the talks due to EU intransigence. It's emerged that No10 threatened to pull security arrangements with the EU lastnight, thus undermining NATO.

    There are firey exchanges in parliament. There is a major leak from No10 this morning assumed to be from Cummings to James Forsyth of the Spectator magazine, ranting about the betrayal and claiming that they will bypass the Benn Act and are going to push through a no deal. It is a good read.
    Here it is,
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/
  • Baden
    8.5k
    Pantomime for Brexiteers. There'll be an extension because it's the law.
  • Punshhh
    765
    I was thinking of a Halloween party, as Halloween is looming over the horizon. I wish I were manufacturing rubber pitch forks, I'd make a killing. Suppose we'll have to settle for tridents and pointy tails.
  • Punshhh
    765
    Yes, the EU has rejected the proposals, it was widely understood that they were never going to be sufficient, but rather a "sham"(according to Cummings). You suggest if Johnson were to negotiate with no deal on the table, there might be some leverage. But I disagree, this is because the EU's red lines are and never were negotiable. They said that right after the referendum, and it ought to have been obvious to Brit's that it would be so ( although I can't say that I had that understanding myself). It is, certainly in hindsight, if not before, a tragic misunderstanding of how the EU is constituted, or what sort of an agreement that was being entered into in this case. The entire notion that some sort of negotiating leverage was an important means to getting a good deal was entirely for the domestic audience in the UK, or more pertinently, the Tory party talking to its own navel.

    I agree that Johnson is weakened by him not delivering his promise and that the Brexit party will wipe the floor with him in the election. He knows this and will now have to neutralise the Brexit party by running on a no deal ticket in the election. The problem is I don't think Brexit party support will trust him and he will loose his moderate support. I can't see him winning a majority.
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    I almost wish Boris could negotiate with no-deal really on the table to see what the result would be - maybe with a secret agreement with parliament to stop no deal at the last moment..Tim3003

    It would make absolutely 0 difference. The EU has four central pillars : freedom of movement, freedom of services, freedom for goods and freedom of capital. No proposal that undermines any of those pillars is going to be acceptable in any way, shape or form.
  • Amity
    803
    https://www.channel4.com/news/government-is-trying-to-collapse-brexit-talks-says-keir-starmer

    Current state of affairs: Keir Starmer talks honestly and sensibly. Of what use against extreme Tory machinations and misrepresentations i.e. lies.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    It would make absolutely 0 difference. The EU has four central pillars : freedom of movement, freedom of services, freedom for goods and freedom of capital. No proposal that undermines any of those pillars is going to be acceptable in any way, shape or form.Benkei

    As far as i can see, that means the options are:

    Remain, and break the referendum promise.
    Reinstate the border in N. Ireland, and break the N.I treaty.
    Unification of Ireland, and break the treaty.

    There can be a fudge where we leave but remain subject to most of the rules, a la permanent backstop, but in order to not have internal borders, the EU needs proper external borders.

    Or we could invade the Republic again, and make them be part of Even Greater Britain.
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    Remain, and break the referendum promise.
    Reinstate the border in N. Ireland, and break the N.I treaty.
    Unification of Ireland, and break the treaty.
    unenlightened

    A hard border between NI and the rest of the UK until such time a different solution can be thought of. Or screw the promise, which was made by a previous government any way with regard to an advisory referendum that only proved the voters were hopelessly split on the issue.
  • Punshhh
    765
    My suggestion would be that the government should revoke and have a border Pole in Northern Ireland. Then try and work something out after they have decided what they want to do.
  • Punshhh
    765
    I don't think that screwing the promise of the first referendum is betraying the promise. Rather it would be Parliament, or the government accepting that there isn't a way of leaving without causing damage to the country, be it an economic catastrophe, or a fracturing of the Good Friday agreement and that parliament has a duty of care to the wellbeing of the country. It would be acting in the country's best interest by cancelling Brexit, or coming to a soft Brexit accommodation.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    I don't think that screwing the promise of the first referendum is betraying the promise.Punshhh

    No. to the extent that there was a promise to respect the result, not respecting the result is breaking the promise. That would be a good thing, but it would be breaking the promise. Let's not resort to gobbledygook.
  • iolo
    126
    I liked the bit in the I this morning comparing the whole sorry saga to Blackadder - it had been very funny, including Cummings' cunning plans, but we were now in the final episode: the whistles were blowing, and it was time for us all to be sent over the top.
  • iolo
    126
    On the stuff about 'nationalism' and 'race', I thought the following was interesting as a comment on our own wicked culture:


    Rugby World Cup: Wales v Fiji for a divided couple

    Emma and Tevita Manaseitava will be divided for 80 minutes

    When Wales play Fiji in the Rugby World Cup on Wednesday, there will be split loyalties at the Manaseitava home in Bridgend.

    Emma is Welsh but her husband Tevita is Fijian - and the Fiji captain is one of his relatives.

    Even their 15-year-old son Dominkio's loyalties are divided.

    "Wales are gonna win, part of me for Dom wants Fiji to come out on top, but my heart is Wales," says Emma, who adds that their son is "Fiji all the way".

    She added: "He's actually Welsh speaking, Welsh through and through. His [Fiji] flag is hanging out the window, his shirt will be on and I think for bragging rights in school he's hoping Fiji will come out on top."

    And Tevita laughs: "My heart says Fiji and, my head says Fiji."

    He moved to Wales in late 1980s to play for Pyle Rugby Club, where he is now a coach.


    Of the match, which starts at 10:45 BST, Tevita said: "I think both camps are nervous. It is a big game for both teams, Wales will be on a defensive to try and win all the pool games, Fiji will be attacking more.

    "It will be a good game - both teams you could say have nothing to lose, but Fiji need to do more to get the game under their hat."

    And what of Wales' famous loss to Fiji in the World Cup in France in 2007?

    "It could happen again, watching them [Fiji] back last week, they are quite dangerous, it is a worry, but Wales are on top form so I think it's going to be a good game," Emma said.
  • Punshhh
    765
    No. to the extent that there was a promise to respect the result, not respecting the result is breaking the promise. That would be a good thing, but it would be breaking the promise. Let's not resort to gobbledygook
    Yes, I don't deny that, however what was the promise to do? Let's say Johnson declared war on Let's say Luxembourg today, I wouldn't put it past him. Giving the reason that this is how to respect the will of the people, there is no other way to do it because Luxembourg was planning, indeed collaborating to thwart the will of the people, right from the beginning. The ends don't justify the means. Lord Sumption said following the Supreme Court judgement,"the ends don't justify the means, if they were to, that would be tyranny".

    Presumably the promise was for parliament to carry out the will of the people with due care to the country and if unknowingly carrying it out were to put the country in peril, to refrain from doing that and to find another solution.

    I would suggest that Parliament's duty is firstly to the Crown and secondly to the people and that parliament would hold an oath to the Crown to have a duty of care to the country, first and foremost.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    I have the solution!

    The name of the EU in English shall be changed to "The New British Empire". Then we'll have none of this German conspiracy to become independent led by the blond Aryan traitor Boris.

    Job done!
  • Punshhh
    765
    The New Boris Empire, lol


    Just heard that there is a group of 60 Tory MPs saying they won't campaign on a no deal Brexit in a general election, including I think 5 cabinet resignations being threatened.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    And the EU Commission can employ the Queen to read them a speech they have written telling them whatever they want to hear, and we'll call that the democratic mandate of legitimate government. I deserve a knighthood for this! Lord Unenlightened at your service.

    We can call it "unexit".
  • Tim3003
    69
    Presumably the promise was for parliament to carry out the will of the people with due care to the country and if unknowingly carrying it out were to put the country in peril, to refrain from doing that and to find another solution.

    I would suggest that Parliament's duty is firstly to the Crown and secondly to the people and that parliament would hold an oath to the Crown to have a duty of care to the country, first and foremost.
    Punshhh

    The idea that a no-deal exit would put the country in peril is maybe putting it a bit strong? My reading of the Brexiteer credo is that leaving is not primarily an economic matter, it is one of politics and freedom. 'We want our country back' sums it up. We can argue against the idea that leaving the EU would achieve that, but in the minds of those who believe it, any thwarting of the referendum outcome is unacceptable. The democratic principle is more important than the economic reality to these people. What they hate is the idea of the Wesminster elite patronisingly telling them that they're wrong and their wishes should be ignored. However questionable their decision-making, this is hard to refute to my mind.
  • Baden
    8.5k
    I think Boris is ready for his Syriza moment. Took much theatre but it's coming.
  • Punshhh
    765
    Quite, the pantomime antics of yesterday were a sight to behold. With widow Twanky guffawing at the despatch box to howls of laughter. It was more like a braying donkey than a prime Minister delivering his Queens speech.
  • Punshhh
    765
    I would concede that it is debatable whether a no deal Brexit is putting the country in peril. I could point out how it would be if you like, but I will mention the break up of the Union for now and leave it at that. Remember that in many ways our public services are already teetering on the edge and the large number of people who are a couple of wage checks away from repossession, or homelessness.

    I agree with your assessment of the Brexiter credo, however I would put that down to the editors of the Sun and the Daily Mail. Along with a rump of toffs in the Tory party. So it is not really a valid credo, rather the result of scaremongering and an outdated bulldog spirit sentiment. As for the motivation of the toffs, I think sir Bill Cash illustrates the problem. As far as he is concerned the German government has a stranglehold over any decision made in the EU parliament and it is only allowed through once hard nosed, hardline German power brokers give it the nod and that our sovereignty is at peril if we remain in the EU.

    I would suggest that the numbers of Brexiters who still hold to this credo has eroded over the summer and it does not need to erode much to have lost its mandate.

    In addition I just wanted to mention the democratic principle you mention. I agree with your point, but in my opinion there is a mis understanding of democracy in the minds of the people you refer to. I think I have already pointed this out a few posts back, but I will repeat it, as it is an important issue in the division which has developed in the country.

    There is a sacred principle in the minds of the people in our country, the principle of democracy. Which they are taught about in school and that the UK is the last bastion, the defender of democracy due to our history etc. But many of the people who hold this view, as I have done myself, don't realise the inadequacies of democracy and that in this country it is exercised, fundamentally, as a system of representative parliament with an executive which is accountable to that parliament, which is regularly changed by a democratic process.

    The way in which the democratic principle is exercised in this system is the way in which the executive is changed, or endorsed at regular intervals by a public vote.

    At no point is the public asked for their view on any particular issue and carrying out a referendum is a different exercise to our decomcracy, it is legally, only an advisory exercise and a difficult way in which to conduct constitutional change. I lay the blame and cause of all this turmoil over the last few years at the door of David Cameron's government and the folly they entered into in this exercise.
  • Punshhh
    765
    Michel Barnier has given Johnson an ultimatum, to provide a full legal text to the EU by midnight tonight(15/10/2019). Which boils down to accepting a customs border down the Irish Sea. He is finished now, there is no way back from this.

    Coincidentally a report came out this morning that Johnson acted recklessly with over 50 million pounds of public money on the garden bridge project ( the Boris Bridge) while he was London Mayor.
  • Baden
    8.5k


    None of this is about the substance for Boris. He always knew if it was anything, it was either May's deal or a custom's border between NI and the UK, but also that he had to act like a complete asshole before the ERG would support him. Which he has done and which they are doing while essentially getting fuck all in return. Anyhow, I think he's ready to wilt like a pissed-on peony while beating his chest through it all. Politricks. Bleugh.
  • Tim3003
    69
    It does look like going down to the wire - as the ERG always said it would. However, their view was that the EU would give ground in the final hours. It looks much more like Boris is doing the giving from the little we are hearing.. My hunch is that Boris will want so much to be the hero who clinches a deal with the EU that he may well do so, but at the cost of getting one parliament can vote for. He'd rather blame them than Brussels because painting MPs as the enemy will help his election chances more.
  • Baden
    8.5k
    Bye-bye, DUP. Hello, Labour rebels.
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