• Punshhh
    765
    Interesting, as Wales as a whole voted to leave the EU. But lastnight Plied Cymru's Adam Price was speaking of an independent Wales in the EU.
  • iolo
    126
    741

    ↪iolo Interesting, as Wales as a whole voted to leave the EU. But lastnight Plied Cymru's Adam Price was speaking of an independent Wales in the EU.
    Punshhh

    It's always been so. One third of the population are English now - mainly geriatrics, fortunately, but they and the holiday-homers close down our schools and pubs for us - and a whole lot of people never hear 'Welsh' news or read a 'Welsh' newspaper, so progress is very slow. However, in the first Referendum for Devolution the Labour Government was unpopular, so it lost, but then the mugs found that English government meant Thatcherism, so then it was victorious on the second. Similarly, they voted Brexit because they are treated like shit and thought it meant they mattered, but as they begin to learn what it will actually mean there is more support for and discussion of Independence. It's a slow learner, my suffering Country, but it does learn - eventually.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    One third of the population are English now - mainly geriatrics,iolo

    I am a geriatric English remainer in Wales. But I think the blame for the school and pub closures has to be laid more at the doors of the Welsh emigrants than the English immigrants. Is there not a certain logic there?

    they voted Brexit because they are treated like shit and thought it meant they mattered,iolo

    This is sadly true of most of the brexit majority regions, and how the rich have convinced them that it is the bloody foreigner shitting on them and not the bloody elite, is truly wonderful to behold. But the incomer and foreigner almost invariably improve the economy. Not the second homers, but the long term residents support the local economy; even idlers like myself bring our pensions and savings into the area.
  • iolo
    126
    I am a geriatric English remainer in Wales. But I think the blame for the school and pub closures has to be laid more at the doors of the Welsh emigrants than the English immigrants. Is there not a certain logic there?unenlightened

    This is sadly true of most of the brexit majority regions, and how the rich have convinced them that it is the bloody foreigner shitting on them and not the bloody elite, is truly wonderful to behold. But the incomer and foreigner almost invariably improve the economy. Not the second homers, but the long term residents support the local economy; even idlers like myself bring our pensions and savings into the area.unenlightened

    The incredible robbery that has gone on over the last few hundred years, as in Ireland, does mean that those who want to 'get on' have to move out, but there were still plenty of people until their houses were all bought up. I don't think most of those who move in contribute anything whatever, frankly - that is just a politeness. Persons like yourself are always welcome, but have you bought a house in an area where our language is spoken, and have you learned any? That's what this is all about.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    there were still plenty of people until their houses were all bought up.iolo

    Well where I used to live was half empty back in the sixties and abandoned cottages sold for £50. So my experience rather contradicts this

    I don't think most of those who move in contribute anything whatever, franklyiolo

    That is frankly racist.
  • iolo
    126
    That is frankly racist.unenlightened

    Duw, there's awful! Better call me 'Taff''! :) As a believer in 'races' I don't get started, I'm afraid! I don't know where you are/were, so it's difficult for me to comment, but if the Government has more-or-less consciously destroyed all employment opportunities, what do you suggest people should do? What we tend to care about is the survival of our language-communities and our own future as a people rather than our being replaced by rich foreigners. Seems to me a fairly normal reaction!
  • unenlightened
    4k
    our being replaced by rich foreigners.iolo

    Seriously, forget the self parody, this is a racist trope.
  • Punshhh
    765
    Yes, and growing. But the centuries of serfdom take a hell of a time to get over.
    I don't disagree, but do you realise there are millions of serfs in England to, just on this side of the border rather than that?

    In my world, places where I have lived, or that I know of have been " gentrified", which is a polite way of saying the privelidged, private school educated, self appointed important people, knobs(for want of a better word) have moved in. They have decimated many a nice old fashioned village, or town. Only the desirable ones of course. A classic example you may know of as it's right on the Welsh border, is Haye on Wye. When I used to visit as young boy it was untouched( well relatively, as there was a draw for secondhand book collectors, as I was). But over the last 30 years it has become gentrified, to the extent that every other shop has been set up by moneyed people playing at being cool and stylish, living the dream( country living magazine style). You trip over them in the streets and in the skinny latte, coffee houses. ( I know there is still a strong local community there, but it has been pushed to the sidelines and into the shadows.)

    This split, them and us divide in our society, our country has been going on overtly since people (some poeple, the privelidged of course) found they had wealth, new money and started spilling out of their middle class enclaves in the Home Counties where their privelidge, their important private schools and routes ( a nod and a wink) into all the privelidged and important jobs, was confined. Now they spill out into every quaint, beautiful, desirable place in the country and pollute it with big black four wheel drive vehicles, with their sharp elbows buy up all the best property's, and make everywhere look like a country living magazine cover.

    Where as there is an equal, infact larger, phenomena of regions and towns becoming deprived, wealth drained away, work going in the direction of short term contracts and zero hour contracts. Dying High streets, filled with chicken cafes, porn shops, betting shops and discount retailers. These are the towns where sizeable numbers of immigrants have been put, adding to the feelings of discontent due to the deprivation, with one of demographic fears too.

    Weirdly not only do these left behind deprived populations feel they want to hit back at the establishment with a leave vote. But the privelidged interlopers on mass want to leave as well. But their reasons are predominantly to increase unregulated capitalism, along with some myth that the Germans are going to suck us into some kind of superstate, which they are in charge of. To become a German colony.

    And so we have Brexit.
  • iolo
    126
    Seriously, forget the self parody, this is a racist trope.unenlightened

    If you like to think in that peculiar way. The only point of any country is its culture, and if that is destroyed, what's it matter who replaces it? That's about it, as far as I can see, and what it has to do with imagined 'races' escapes me.
  • iolo
    126


    I agree with all you say. The point about our culture is that it makes the history of these things easier to remember. It is astounding to me how, in English, the rich revolutionary traditions of mining areas like this get rubbed away, whereas a minority culture things are better remembered - though even there the increasing commercialisation is doing what it can. We are fortunate in that our fake history is mainly cultural, especially the National Eisteddfod, rather than political.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    If you like to think in that peculiar way.iolo

    Races are imagined, but countries and cultures are real?

    My wife is a very real mixed race culture person, Welsh and Caribbean. Her father's name, his slave name was 'Williams'. What is peculiar is to imagine that the dreadful abusive history of Britain stopped at the border and left Wales innocent. How very complacently racist you are again to think that nation has a reality that race does not. Imagine a Jew in the Death camps or a slave on the plantation saying 'races are imagined'! Now that would be peculiar. But coming from you as represented in what you have already said, it is just more racism.
  • iolo
    126
    My wife is a very real mixed race culture person, Welsh and Caribbean. Her father's name, his slave name was 'Williams'. What is peculiar is to imagine that the dreadful abusive history of Britain stopped at the border and left Wales innocent. How very complacently racist you are again to think that nation has a reality that race does not. Imagine a Jew in the Death camps or a slave on the plantation saying 'races are imagined'! Now that would be peculiar. But coming from you as represented in what youunenlightened

    You speak a language or you don't: it's not difficult to grasp, surely.
    ? The language gives you access to a particular culture. Still with me? 'Race' is a nonsense thought up by imperialism to allow one lot to be persuaded that those the rich wanted them to fight were quite other than themselves, whereas cultures are real and can be experienced. I don't quite see how geographical concepts can be innocent or guilty of anything, and quite obviously races were imagined to allow slavery and mass murder. I rather gather that you were too superior to learn the language of the country you were settling in: you certainly seem to be getting extremely worked up about imagined things, so I take that to be the reason! :) No need to be so sensitive: our struggle to survive had hardly got going back then!
  • unenlightened
    4k
    You speak a language or you don't:iolo

    I don't quite see how geographical concepts can be innocent or guilty of anything,iolo

    Have fun joining up those dots. I'll leave there, sir. I have had this conversation too many times. But I do urge you to consider the historical connections between nationalism and fascism and racism, and consider that being black is at least as real as being Welsh. I would bet that even a expert like you would see my wife's blackness before you noticed her Welshness.

    I rather gather that you were too superior to learn the language of the country you were settling in: you certainly seem to be getting extremely worked up about imagined things, so I take that to be the reason! :) No need to be so sensitive: our struggle to survive had hardly got going back then!iolo

    You know so much about me that I have not said; your condescension is so very English. Personally it is the Englishness of Welsh culture that I find objectionable, the overweening pride, the xenophobia, the self-satisfied innocence, the exclusivity. Fortunately, it exists mainly in a middle-class minority, and the real Welsh culture and tradition is much more open-hearted.

    And by the way, one can speak a language somewhat. It is by no means the case that one speaks it or does not. For example aside from English, I speak reasonable French (for a foreigner) a very little German, and some Catalan. And maybe a smattering of some other tongues. But I am no linguist.
  • iolo
    126
    To wish to keep your own culture alive is normal. It doesn't need defence or political guff. I would notice whether your wife spoke the language of her country. Why should I be bothered about anything else? I don't see why I have to suffer all this tedious irrelevance, really I don't.
  • unenlightened
    4k
    I would notice whether your wife spoke the language of her country.iolo

    I'm sorry, I wanted to leave you be, but this is a bit too extreme. Suppose, like most of the Welsh, she did not?

    Half a million people in Wales can speak Welsh; that's around 19% of the population.

    Why should you be bothered about 81% of the population of the country you claim as your own? No reason at all, let them eat cake. Now I really am done.
  • Punshhh
    765
    I respect the Welsh for their insistence on keeping their culture alive. Here in England, I don't know what our culture is, as to a large extent it is defined by the notion of a United Kingdom and Commonwealth and as a mixing bowl for all the cultures found in the different regions of that. So now that those other regions have left or may soon leave, what are we left with? Even our language is not ours anymore, it is owned by the whole world.

    What would we call our country, Great England? Or maybe Boris Isles, which might be appropriate.

    I will coin my phrase again,

    Remember Remember the 1st of November.
  • Baden
    8.5k
    Probably 95% of we Irish can't speak Irish (fluently). So, what is it to be Irish? What is it to be a game? It's never one thing and no one thing is ever indispensable.
  • Tim3003
    69
    Government documents submitted to Scotland’s highest civil court today state that the prime minister will seek a Brexit extension from the EU if no withdrawal deal is reached by 19 October.

    Boris Johnson said he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than seek a further delay, and the revelation in court appears to be in direct contradiction of that statement and throws the question of whether the UK will leave the bloc on 31 October into fresh doubt.'
    Amity

    I've heard that the answer could be yes, he will ask the EU for an extension, but he will also 'bribe' the Poles to veto the EU proposal to grant one by putting pressure on their relationship with the UK. I'm not sure how he can exert greater pressure than the EU can - maybe via trident missiles?!
  • Baden
    8.5k


    Maybe another Daily Telegraph fantasy (the last one was that Ireland was "under pressure" to accept Boris's deal). The fact is that no EU country is going to go out on a limb for the UK. Not on the extension, not on any deal, not on anything. Least of all Poland. Consider that one of the main reasons the UK is leaving is because they want to keep foreigners (particularly Poles and other eastern Europeans) out. Add to that the obvious point that EU countries will always have more to gain from members than non-members and it adds up to the UK continuing to have as little leverage as ever.
  • Punshhh
    765
    My reading of what Johnson is up to with the Benn act is that he will capitulate and ask for the extension when it is clear that he won't get his deal with the EU. He is keeping up the pretence of defying the law in an attempt to put pressure on the EU to compromise.

    When he asks for the extension there is going to be an almighty push to put the blame on everyone else trying to thwart Brexit, the will of the people. The idea being that it will build up a head of steam and give him a majority in the looming general election. When he gets this majority he will carry on from where he left off, but with an offer which he can get through Parliament. Thus giving the EU a way out through some fudge over the Irish Border, then we will get the Canada plus deal.

    The problem as I see it is that he will split the leave vote in the general election, by running on a negotiated deal ticket, to try and get the moderate vote. Surely he can't still be facing both ways this far down the line. People will smell a rat and won't trust him anymore.
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    The only point of any country is its culture, and if that is destroyed, what's it matter who replaces it?iolo

    And culture conveniently adheres to borders? How quaint.
  • iolo
    126
    Half a million people in Wales can speak Welsh; that's around 19% of the population.

    Why should you be bothered about 81% of the population of the country you claim as your own? No reason at all, let them eat cake. Now I really am done.
    unenlightened

    What is all that supposed to be about? If there are no areas of the Country where the language is used, it ceases to be in any meaningful sense a country. Are you a big capitalist or something - all these obsessive attempts to work up hatred do look remarkably like it!
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    If there are no areas of the Country where the language is used, it ceases to be in any meaningful sense a country.iolo

    Now you're equating language with culture if your quote in my previous post is any indication.
  • iolo
    126
    Punshhh - I love the Boris Isles! In my own opinion, certain parts of England have very rich traditions, and have dialects as different from Standard as Scots. One or my daughters has been researching revolutionary traditions in and around Bradford for instance, and it would be interesting to follow through the elimination of Elmet and Loidis from memory. I'm rather fascinated by the way history is managed - the way we were told that the four-to-five million people of Roman Britannia were 'driven west' by a few thousand German mercenaries, for instance, or the complete disappearance of so much working-class action from history, the Physical Force Chartists, for instance. Who's ever heard of the Merthyr Rising these days. It seems to me that, just as we did in the Eighteenth Century, the English could build a very satisfactory national tradition by cutting out a good deal of boss-class propaganda. As a people rather than as a gang of imperialists they have a very great deal to be proud of!
  • iolo
    126
    And culture conveniently adheres to borders? How quaint.Benkei

    Good God, no - what a weird idea!
  • iolo
    126


    Obviously. What do you equate it with?
  • iolo
    126
    To connect all this with Brexit again, the most obvious political unit for a small country is a large Federation made of all sorts of others. The EU, unlike the Westminster regime, also does what it can for minority languages.
  • Punshhh
    765
    Yes I agree about the airbrushing of history, my family comes from Huddersfield by the way, so Yorkshire a region with its own traditions and history. Going back to identity though, we don't have an equivalent to the Eisteddfod, and we can't shut the knobs out, because they come from England (actually I suspect France with William the conqueror). So we're stuck with them.
  • iolo
    126
    ↪iolo Yes I agree about the airbrushing of history, my family comes from Huddersfield by the way, so Yorkshire a region with its own traditions and history. Going back to identity though, we don't have an equivalent to the Eisteddfod, and we can't shut the knobs out, because they come from England (actually I suspect France with William the conqueror). So we're stuck with them.Punshhh

    My Wife comes from up there. The trick is to do what we did in the Eighteenth Century, and start see those who speak in a foreign fashion as foreigners, and ignore them! One of her ancestors was done for armed rebellion in the Chartist days, and when he got out of Wakefield Jail, had to get a loan from the Woolcombers' Association to go to Australia. since he was blacklisted in Bradford. His brothers, despairing of getting rid of wage-slavery here, went over to the 'States to volunteer for the Northern Army, and the next generation but one were (probably) founder-members of the ILP. There's all the material in the world available for us all if we care to ignore propaganda! :)
  • Benkei
    2.1k
    Culture isn't monolithic and certainly not defined by language alone. Western culture overarches several languages. At the same time the culture in my city is distinct from other areas in the Netherlands, which is still Dutch culture. And just look at the history of the development of the guitar (or most any other instrument for that matter) that cultural differences are fluid. Cultures exchange, change, copy and merge over time.

    Given how culture has comes about, resistance to cultural change is misplaced.
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