• Wayfarer
    16.1k
    It occurs to me, listening to the pre-broadcast commentary, that a very sizeable minority, and possibly even a majority, of Americans, really do believe that Donald Trump is above the law. They may not express it in those terms, and if you put it to them in those words, they might disagree, but in practice this is what they actually believe. And that's why constitutional democracy is under threat in America - because the very people whose will it is supposed to express no longer believe in it.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k


    Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

    H. L. Mencken
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k



    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

    H.L. Mencken
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    I know there's an awful lot of anti-democratic ideology in this forum but it's just like Churchill said after defeating Hitler - it's the least bad option. Anyway, I'm going to keep an eye on those hearings today, it's why I've posted the youtube link.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k


    I agree with that one. It's just a long wait for the People (in no way excluding myself) to put away childish things. Another millennium or two should do.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    Wish I had time to watch it. I'll catch the highlights and the blooper reel.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Hearings tonight were damning. Trump should be afraid to walk out in public.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Donald Trump should have himself checked for a brain parasite! It's the only way he can let himself off the hook. It wasn't me that did all those horrible things, it was slow rabies or something like that!
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    Trump should be afraid to walk out in public.Jackson

    A significant number of them will applaud him when he does. Unfortunately.

    I wonder if Murdoch and Trump will share a cubicle in Hell.
  • Michael
    10.6k
    Donald Trump Allegedly Cheered Mob Wanting To Hang VP: 'Mike Pence Deserves It'

    Former President Donald Trump welcomed chants by his supporters calling for his Vice President Mike Pence to be hanged on January 6th, 2021, according to Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), a lead investigator on the House select committee probing the attack on the U.S. Capitol.

    During the first public hearing held by the committee on Thursday, Cheney cited testimony by Trump advisers who recalled the president saying, “Maybe our supporters have the right idea. Mike Pence deserves it.”

    ...

    Cheney also said that the committee will air testimony that Trump “really did not want to put anything out” by urging his supporters to stand down and leave the Capitol, and that the former president was “really angry” at advisors who said he needed to do so.

    “On the morning of January 6, President Donald Trump’s intention was to remain president of the United States,” Cheney said, adding that he had “a seven-point plan” to overturn the 2020 election.

    Cheney said Trump made “relentless efforts to pressure Pence both in private and public.”

    “What President Trump asked Vice President Pence to do wasn’t just wrong. It was illegal and unconstitutional,” she added.
  • Tate
    377
    It occurs to me, listening to the pre-broadcast commentary, that a very sizeable minority, and possibly even a majority, of Americans, really do believe that Donald Trump is above the law.Wayfarer

    In practice, the president ends up being above the law, especially if he's very influential like Trump. Does Trump's failure to be impeached reflect a diminished commitment to democracy? Definitely. I don't know where that's headed.

    Post presidency, they just can't find a crime to stick on him. That had nothing to do with democracy.
  • Tate
    377
    All judicial systems fail sometimes. This is a case study in a UK failure:

  • Relativist
    1.7k
    Post presidency, they just can't find a crime to stick on him. That had nothing to do with democracy.Tate

    Mueller's investigation identified several instances of obstruction of Justice, with evidence that many former federal prosecutors agreed was more than adequate for an indictment. I see two possible reasons to explain why this hasn't been prosecuted: 1) conviction depends on proving Trump had corrupt intent - which is challenging, and 2) anything short of a conviction could be perceived as political vendetta.

    New York is apparently dropping the criminal case against Trump for his financial crimes, and it's because the case is so complex and therefore difficult to establish Trump's personal involvement at key steps. It's notable that Trump does not use email. On the other hand, the civil suit has a good chance of succeeding. However, past suits that he lost don't seem to matter to his cult members.

    It's possible a good case can be made for his attempts to overturn the election, but it remains to be seen. I've always thought that his best defense would be to argue that he truly believed he won the election, whether out of stupidity or delusion. It's not a crime to publicly proclaim something he believed to be true. It was interesting to hear testimony from Barr, Jason Miller, and Ivanka - but this just shows Trump was provided the facts, not that he accepted them.

    Perhaps we'll learn that Trump was told about the planning of the Proud Boys for 1/6. We'll have to stay tuned.
  • NOS4A2
    5.9k


    A sober analysis, Relativist. Respect.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Perhaps we'll learn that Trump was told about the planning of the Proud Boys for 1/6. We'll have to stay tuned.Relativist

    "Stand down, and stand by." Trump was directly ordering the Proud Boys.
  • L'éléphant
    735
    All judicial systems fail sometimes. This is a case study in a UK failure:Tate
    Terrible. More power to Amber Heard.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k

    Interesting but also depressing thread. People need to realize that anti-trans culture warring is the bleeding edge of American fascism right now. Anyone who buys into, perpetuates, or stands by it is on the side of fascists, full stop. Or as Jason Stanley put it the other day - either one stands in solidarity with our trans friends, or one is complicit in end of what little there is of American democracy. That's the choice.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    Stand down, and stand by." Trump was directly ordering the Proud Boys.Jackson

    He said: "Stand back and stand by."

    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-donald-trump-chris-wallace-0b32339da25fbc9e8b7c7c7066a1db0f
  • praxis
    5.1k
    Trump was provided the facts, not that he accepted them.Relativist

    Americans don’t deserve a leader who accepts facts.
  • Relativist
    1.7k
    "Stand down, and stand by." Trump was directly ordering the Proud Boys.Jackson
    Clearly, the Proud Boys perceived it that way, but how do you establish Trump's intent? His post debate statement would get him off: “I don’t know who the Proud Boys are. Whoever they are, they have to stand down. Let law enforcement do their work.”
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Clearly, the Proud Boys perceived it that way, but how do you establish Trump's intent?Relativist

    By every single thing that happened. Seem obvious and consistent. Trump never hides anything.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Trump, whatever said and done, was voted into the White House in a fair election!
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Trump, whatever said and done, was voted into the White House in a fair election!Agent Smith

    Maybe. Therefore, what?
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    Maybe. Therefore, what?Jackson

    Good question!
  • ArielAssante
    33
    Always regarded The Donald as a clown. That has not changed.

    An Interesting note aside: The Donald grew up in the church of positive thinking:

    "Former U.S. president Donald Trump has called Peale* "his pastor" and "one of the greatest speakers" he had ever seen. According to Donald's niece and author Mary L. Trump, Donald Trump's father, Fred, became interested in Peale's message in the 1950s.[17] Fred and his wife, Mary Anne MacLeod Trump, traveled to the Marble Collegiate Church in Manhattan with their children to hear Peale's sermons. Donald Trump grew up hearing Peale's teachings from his parents, and Peale officiated his first wedding.[18] Trump credits his survival in 1990 after being almost a billion dollars in debt to Peale's positive thinking teachings.”

    In the quote above where he is said to have attributed his success in the 1990s debacle to Peale, another source reported: The Donald was guided by Guiliani to fake bankruptcy so as to avoid a huge settlement with his then wife: Ivana. After the divorce, miraculously, he appeared to recover financially.

    *The Power of Positive Thinking: A Practical Guide to Mastering the Problems of Everyday Living is a 1952 self-help book by American minister Norman Vincent Peale.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Positive_Thinking
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    Always the same with Trump - although you think you've seen the worst, heard the worst, something comes along that is even more despicable than all the many despicable things he's already done. It's a bottomless pit of depravity.

    Today's installment was groups of thugs and rabble-rousers standing outside the homes of election officials, or driving around video trucks calling them paedophiles and perverts. This, directed in many cases, at lifelong Republicans, one of whom was at the time caring for a terminally-ill daughter inside the house, while the mob stood outside chanting slogans. (She has subsequently died.)

  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Always the same with Trump - although you think you've seen the worst, heard the worst, something comes along that is even more despicable than all the many despicable things he's already done. It's a bottomless pit of depravity.Wayfarer

    Indeed. Trump is always more horrible than we can imagine.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    when Mr. Trump descended into rage, his staff resorted to summoning an aide, nicknamed the Music Man, to play favorite show tunes they knew would soothe him, including “Memory” from the Broadway musical “Cats.”

    https://archive.ph/Lv2lc

    :death:
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