• BlueBanana
    854
    Observe the brain. There are no images. There is no memory. There are no thoughts. There are no colors or sounds. There is no instinct for survival.Rich

    If I was to continue further into the materialistic direction, I'd argue that yes there is. Look into a computer, can you see the images? No, but they're still within the computer. We already know how memories are in the brain.

    Instead I'll rule the brain and consciousness out of the discussion both because they haven't been explained by materialists yet and because I don't think they can be. How about plants? From what you've said I've gotten the picture that according to you, mind exists in all living things and parts of our body, not only brain. What is that based on?

    It's what you observe, not what I observe. Everyone observes differently depending upon their history (memory).Rich

    So how do you know I'll observe a proof to your opinion? What were your observations and how do they imply that the difference in mind causes differences in evolution?
  • BlueBanana
    854
    The problem is that science had become goal seeking, that is anything but the mind. The Church Inquisitor use to use the same tactics in order to preserve its dogma. Science no longer just observes and reports, now markets and creates theories for funding purposes. NGOs operate in the same way. This is euphemistically referred to as research bias.Rich

    Do you have any actual first hand experience on microbiology research? Afaik we know how living organisms work and there are no gaps that élan vital would fill.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    If I was to continue further into the materialistic direction, I'd argue that yes there is. Look into a computer, can you see the images? No, but they're still within the computer. We already know how memories are in the brain.BlueBanana

    There are no images in a computer anywhere. Just on-off states.
    How about plants? From what you've said I've gotten the picture that according to you, mind exists in all living things and parts of our body, not only brain. What is that based on?BlueBanana

    In another thread I linked to various studies regarding plant sentience. Differences and similarities.
    So how do you know I'll observe a proof to your opinion? What were your observations and how do they imply that the difference in mind causes differences in evolution?BlueBanana

    I have no idea what you will observe. However, in life, developing skills in observation, curiosity, and questioning (skepticism) can be very rewarding and helpful.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Do you have any actual first hand experience on microbiology research? Afaik we know how living organisms work and there are no gaps that élan vital would fill.BlueBanana

    I had friends who will because they could no longer stomach it. Most of their time was devoted to developing marketing pitches for fundraising purposes. Their superiors had to be paid their grand salaries for doing absolutely nothing in some way, right? Cure for cancer was always good.
  • BlueBanana
    854
    There are no images in a computer anywhere. Just on-off states.Rich

    That form the image. With TV you had a point because the images aren't stored in the TV but they come from outside it. Why couldn't the mind, images or memories be stored in the brain as electric signals or chemicals?

    I have no idea what you will observe. However, in life, developing skills in observation, curiosity, and questioning (skepticism) can be very rewarding and helpful.Rich

    So if you din't know that I'll observe an answer to my question, why the advice? Could you give the answer?

    I had friends who will because they could no longer stomach it.Rich

    Ask those friends whether a movement of a signal in a nerve can be explained by the chemicals interacting with each other or whether there's a need for a force that isn't explained by science.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    That form the image. With TV you had a point because the images aren't stored in the TV but they come from outside it. Why couldn't the mind, images or memories be stored in the brain as electric signals or chemicals?BlueBanana

    It is the mind that forms the image. The computer like the TV set like the brain are receiving/transmission tools, but the brain is living and this can adapt.

    So if you din't know that I'll observe an answer to my question, why the advice? Could you give the answer?BlueBanana

    Results are always unpredictable. It is the nature of life that it develops differently. But, observing all the batteries of dogs, may provide some interesting insights and new ideas.

    Ask those friends whether a movement of a signal in a nerve can be explained by the chemicals interacting with each other or whether there's a need for a force that isn't explained by science.BlueBanana

    My friends didn't believe in any of this but a job is a job - until you quit. Academia and research is all politics.
  • BlueBanana
    854
    It is the mind that forms the image. The computer like the TV set like the brain are receiving/transmission tools, but the brain is living and this can adapt.Rich

    If the computer is the receiver, what sends the image? Nothing, it exists in the computer, just in another form.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    If the computer is the receiver, what sends the image? Nothing, it exists in the computer, just in another form.BlueBanana

    The computer sends some pixels to an output device that arranges the pixels in a manner that the programmer's mind chose. The observer's mind than looks at the representation and forms an image in the mind.

    Let me assure you, because it seems you are not familiar with computer electronics, there are no images in the computer or the TV set. It is all formed in minds. Did someone tell you differently?
  • BlueBanana
    854
    I am familiar with how a computer works. What we're disagreeing on whether it's the image anymore if it's coded as 0s and 1s. The image is information and as that information is there, the image is there as information.

    Back to the subject, why can't memories exist as electric signals in the brain and be transformed into memories as we perceive them by the brain?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    The image is information and as that information is there, the image is there as information.BlueBanana

    There are on and off bits. How they are interpreted once they are projected into some output device, based upon some human developed program, is up to each individual mind. If one just looks at some electronic component, there is absolutely no image and again, I invite you to observe.
  • jorndoe
    535
    Natural selection is just a nice story, without a shred of evidence, that appeals to those seeking fitter and not fitter.Rich

    Really?

    Would you like to pitch biological evolution (roughly as currently understood) against creationism over in the science (or religion) department?

    I'll open a new post referring to your claim, if asked, and if you promise to show evolution the door (or justify your claim I mean). Might include a poll.

    Per se, abiogenesis is a hypothesis, and evolution is established.
  • BlueBanana
    854
    This is all 100% irrelevant and just semantics. Do you agree on that memories exist as electric signals in the brain and are transformed into memories as we perceive them by the brain?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    of course there are signals, in TV sets, in computers, in brains, but it is the mind that forms the image. Without the mind there are just signals. This is extremely relevant. The mind is always there to form that image.
  • BlueBanana
    854
    Of course the mind is there, but why not the materialistic or even any non-creative evolutionist interpretation of mind?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    Materialism does not allow for a mind. Only signals. Everything else is either an illusion or "just happens". The illusion just springs into existence. For me, it's a pretty odd story, created just so there is no formative, creative mind. Exactly how are all of those bits organized without a mind?
  • BlueBanana
    854
    Materialism does not allow for a mind.Rich

    Let's say I agree. How about any non-creative evolutionist view? And to get back to the track, is there any scenario the spaghetti bowl doesn't explain, or is the only reason for denying it that it's a bowl of spaghetti?
  • Rich
    3.2k
    The spaghetti bowl essentially explains nothing. Wiping away all of the tomato sauce meatballs, parmesan cheese, and olives, what you have left are stands of noodles all shouting out the same thing: It just happens.

    So in essence you have a continuous string of miracles just happening.

    What is amazing is that at once, you have this society of minds creating this magnificent story, and you have larger society of minds believing it (or having great faith in it), all last the same time time denying their own minds that are participating in it. It is truly amazing to observe from the audience.
  • BlueBanana
    854
    It just happens. Denying scientific truths because they are too messy and chaotic or don't reveal a big reason and explanation behind everything is disturbingly close to creationism and conspiracy theories.
  • Rich
    3.2k
    It just happens. Denying scientific truths because they are too messy and chaotic or don't reveal a big reason and explanation behind everything is disturbingly close to creationism and conspiracy theories.BlueBanana

    If your curiosity ends at "It just happens", and you want to deny your own mind in favor of some constantly changing stories, (I imagine this is what is the current garden variety truths), then whom am I to suggest to you otherwise. You have no mind and "It just happens". Ok. Many believe in miracles.
  • BlueBanana
    854

    1) They aren't stories because they are descriptions, not explanations, and based on either our observations or common sense.
    2) None of them contradicts the existence of mind.
    3) Isn't a magical, unexplained existence of mind a miracle in itself?
    4) When you look at how wonderful and beautiful life is, does it not feel miraculous to you?
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