• MikeL
    376
    Welcome aboard.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    You lost me there. Are you claiming that the survival of the fittest and creative evolution are the same thing by different names? Btw, I'm don't believe in the élan vital which seems pretty central so not aboard.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    Understanding life is not about proofs.Rich

    True, but the evolution of biological organisms isn't the same thing as understanding life.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    Imbuing genes with all kinds of human characteristics such surviving, reproducing, fittest, traits, etc. simply shifts the actions of the mind to gene. It doesn't explain anything.Rich

    So your argument is that because of complexity of human mind, actions, culture, survival in modern society regardless of our genes etc. we choose our companions based on non-genetic traits so the survival of the fittest doesn't apply? Very much possible but I can't say the same for other animals.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    True, but the evolution of biological organisms isn't the same thing as understanding life.BlueBanana

    If one ruminates over this statement one might find that understanding evolution is all about understanding life. That is why "natural selection" is sacrosanct to materialism, i.e. chemicals "naturally" come together and morph into life - and stay there. It is the greatest miracle ever told.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    Very much possible but I can't say the same for other animals.BlueBanana

    All minds are necessarily different and are on different paths. However, dog owners certainly feel very connected to them.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    Btw, I'm don't believe in the élan vital which seems pretty central so not aboard.BlueBanana

    The Elan vital (Bergson's terminology) is nothing more than the creative will that the mind exerts. This stands in contrast to the mind's memory. If you feel you have a creative element and if you feel you have the will that you can utilize to try to manifest this creativity, then that is the Elan vital. It is only what one experiences every day.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    The Elan vital (Bergson's terminology) is nothing more than the creative will that the mind exerts. This stands in contrast to the mind's memory. If you feel you have a creative element and if you feel you have the will that you can utilize to try to manifest this creativity, then that is the Elan vital. It is only what one experiences every day.Rich

    This is not all the term implies. I obviously believe in creative mind, but not its role in evolution that creative evolution gives to it.

    If one ruminates over this statement one might find that understanding evolution is all about understanding life. That is why "natural selection" is sacrosanct to materialism, i.e. chemicals "naturally" come together and morph into life - and stay there. It is the greatest miracle ever told.Rich

    The materialistic explanation has been proven true. We know how those chemicals, molecules and cells are formed and what their structure is. I don't consider myself a materialist but materialistic explanations can indeed explain our physicl world.

    All minds are necessarily different and are on different paths. However, dog owners certainly feel very connected to them.Rich

    Could you elaborate?
  • Rich
    1.9k
    This is not all the term implies. I obviously believe in creative mind, but not its role in evolution that creative evolution gives to it.BlueBanana

    That's all it is. The mind is creatively adapting to changing circumstances, the mind operating at all instances of life. There is nothing more to the Elan vital.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    The materialistic explanation has been proven true.BlueBanana

    Well this is prima facie not the case since the materialist explanation, whatever it is, is changing all the time and is nothing more than a spaghetti bowl of ideas that are tossed about as much as finding will allow. In other words, it is an outright mess without any proof and any hope for proof. But if you are satisfied with "it" (no one can describe what "it" is), then that is your choice. Personally, I never subscribe to obvious obfuscation.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    As far as animal minds are concerned, they are much different from human minds. They are evolving in different directions. Bats, whales, homing pigeons, all very different. None more fiy than any other. All is constantly evolving and adapting.

    The Rupert Sheldrake video I posted earlier discusses the evolution of life in a general way.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    Well this is prima facie not the case since the materialist explanation, whatever it is, is changing all the time and is nothing more than a spaghetti bowl of ideas that are tossed about as much as finding will allow. In other words, it is an outright mess without any proof and any hope for proof. But if you are satisfied with "it" (no one can describe what "it" is), then that is your choice. Personally, I never subscribe to obvious obfuscation.Rich

    There is no proof for most of those theories because there is nothing to prove. They only describe the chaotic reality. One of the few things that can be considered proven is the existence of atoms and molecyles and how they interact with each other, and that DNA for example exists and what it is like. These basic things aren't chaotic, they aren't the spaghetti. They're the existence of the bowl and the spaghetti, which are not changed.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    As far as animal minds are concerned, they are much different from human minds. They are evolving in different directions. Bats, whales, homing pigeons, all very different. None more for than any other.Rich

    What facts point at that they're evolving in different directions because of their minds?
  • BlueBanana
    289
    That's all it is. The mind is creatively adapting to changing circumstances, the mind operating at all instances of life. There is nothing more to the Elan vital.Rich

    What you're saying is that you have a mind that is creative and tries to adapt, and therefore there's a mind operating at all instances of life that is also creatively adapting, which explains the evolution. Élan vital means all the three sentences, I (and majority of the people, I think) only buy the first one.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    Just observe the vast varieties of an species - say dogs.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    One of the few things that can be considered proven is the existence of atoms and molecyles and how they interact with each other,BlueBanana

    Yes, they exist and they interact in a vast number of different ways, and they even act in a non-local manner in an unpredictable but probabilistic manner. That's just about it. Just because there are electronics interacting in a TV set does not mean that the source of the pictures is inside the electronics. In fact, such a reading of the nature of electronics would be considered strange.

    The question is, what is bringing habit (probabilistic behavior) and novelty into our realm of experience. It's right there for everyone to observe, our minds.

    What is spaghetti is the jumble of scientific theories of biological evolution which is continuously growing, changing, and morphing into new theories as materialistic science does everything it can to deny the mind. It's pretty extraordinary to observe what people will do for money.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    What is spaghetti is the jumble of scientific theories of biological evolution which is continuously growing, changing, and morphing into new theoriesRich

    It's not any more complex than the nature it's trying to describe, which is pretty damn complex. That's because those theories are there to describe, not to explain. Any of the selected few explaining theories are very simple and neat.
  • BlueBanana
    289
    Just observe the vast varieties of an species - say dogs.Rich

    And what observations should I make from them?
  • BlueBanana
    289
    Just because there are electronics interacting in a TV set does not mean that the source of the pictures is inside the electronics.Rich

    Furthermore, this can be easily proven by opening up the TV and inspecting its parts and how they work because of how advanced our technology is. We can do the same with living organisms or cells for example.
  • Rich
    1.9k
    It's not any more complex than the nature it's trying to describe, which is pretty damn complex. That's because those theories are there to describe, not to explain. Any of the selected few explaining theories are very simple and neat.BlueBanana

    The problem is that science had become goal seeking, that is anything but the mind. The Church Inquisitor use to use the same tactics in order to preserve its dogma. Science no longer just observes and reports, now markets and creates theories for funding purposes. NGOs operate in the same way. This is euphemistically referred to as research bias.

    And what observations should I make from them?BlueBanana

    It's what you observe, not what I observe. Everyone observes differently depending upon their history (memory).

    Furthermore, this can be easily proven by opening up the TV and inspecting its parts and how they work because of how advanced our technology is. We can do the same with living organisms or cells for example.BlueBanana

    Exactly. Observe the brain. There are no images. There is no memory. There are no thoughts. There are no colors or sounds. There is no instinct for survival. Ditto for TV sets. The brain is a tool of the mind as it's the TV set, the difference being that the brain has life.
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