Twenty-five
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great.
Being great, it flows
It flows far away.
Having gone far, it returns.
Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The king is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them.
Man follows Earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Blessed from heaven to his queen mother
Brought unity to blue sealed Mongols
The bearer of the eternal Tengri
The lord of the Khamag Mongol
The Great Chinggis Khaan
Called by Teb Tengri
Bestowed to enrich the world
The bearer of the eternal Tengri
The lord of the blue Mongol
The Great Chinggis Khaan
The king of the great Mongols
The king of the blue world
The scourge of the eternal Tengri
The Great Chinggis Khaan
Cherished the wisdom of thinkers
Declared deliverance and the Gereg
The bearer of the eternal Tengri
The king of the blue world
The Great Chinggis Khaan
Knees be knelt and heads be bowed
Engaged the world with the wisdom of Tengri
Declared the empire with law and order
The scourge of the eternal Tengri — The HU
Being great, it flows
It flows far away.
Having gone far, it returns. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
So if nature is the manifest world — Janus
according to this verse. — Janus
We cannot follow that which is — Janus
So, there seems to be some equivocation going on — Janus
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Therefore, One should not follow what is Great (Tao), one should instead follow Nature (what is not Tao). — Arcane Sandwich
But this should never be confused with modern naturalism, which has been conscientiously defined to exclude such nefarious and amorphous ideas. — Wayfarer
I'm always reticent when it comes to this text as it is deeply intertwined with Chinese culture and language and my knowledge of them is cursory. But I can see parallels in other Axial Age texts and concepts. The idea I'd like to call out is an expression 'the uncarved block' which is found in Taoist texts. It refers to the unconditioned, the unmade, which is also the subject of the above. There is no parallel in the English lexicon or culture. It is associated with ancient asceticism and shamanic or yogic practices of trance states, what Indian culture would call samadhi. But these are non-conceptual states, hence 'for the lack of a better word' and 'I do not know its name'. Other like sayings are 'the nameless if the mother of the ten thousand things'. Some parallels can be drawn with Plotinus' One, but with great intepretive care. — Wayfarer
I can see parallels in other Axial Age texts and concepts. The idea I'd like to call out is an expression 'the uncarved block' which is found in Taoist texts. It refers to the unconditioned, the unmade, which is also the subject of the above. There is no parallel in the English lexicon or culture. — Wayfarer
Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The king is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Cherished the wisdom of thinkers
Declared deliverance and the Gereg
The bearer of the eternal Tengri
The king of the blue world
The Great Chinggis Khaan
Knees be knelt and heads be bowed
Engaged the world with the wisdom of Tengri
Declared the empire with law and order
The scourge of the eternal Tengri — The HU
How would you explain this part, specifically, to an English audience? — Arcane Sandwich
I studied comparative religion, and one of the major authors in that field is Mircea Eliade, a Romanian-American active at the University of Chicago mid-century. — Wayfarer
The problem with modern Western culture is that so many of those ideas are stereotyped under the heading of religion, — Wayfarer
when they're very different from how that term is usually interpreted. — Wayfarer
better to find a Chinese speaker! — Wayfarer
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
I tend to associate this passage with what Hesiod says in his Theogony about Xaos (Chaos). I also relate it to the Primitive Customs of the Hummingbird of Guarani Mythology. Is this senseless to you? — Arcane Sandwich
No that's definitely in the ball park! 'Axial age', as I say. That's a very useful idea in this context. It's associated with Karl Jaspers but has also been written on by Karen Armstrong. It's about the fact that around 6th-3rd centuries B.C.E. a number of prophets and sages were active, including Pythagoras, Lao Tsu, the Buddha, and others, who set the wheels in motion for what were to become the great cultural formations of India, China and the West. — Wayfarer
Hail, children of Zeus!
Grant lovely song
and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are forever,
those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night
and them that briny Sea did rear.
Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be,
and rivers,
and the boundless sea with its raging swell,
and the gleaming stars,
and the wide heaven above,
and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things,
and how they divided their wealth,
and how they shared their honors amongst them,
and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus.
These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus,
and tell me which of them first came to be.
In truth at first Chaos came to be,
but next wide-bosomed Earth,
the ever-sure foundation of all
the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus,
and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth,
and Eros (Love),
fairest among the deathless gods,
who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind
and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them.
From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night;
but of Night were born
Aether
and Day — Hesiod (Theogony)
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
The Primitive Customs of the Hummingbird
Our Father, the Absolute First
created himself from the primordial darkness.
He created the divine soles of his feet,
His small round throne.
He created them as he grew in the primordial darkness.
The reflection of his divine wisdom, his divine all-hearing
His divine palms holding his scepter and flowering branches
these Ñamandú created as he grew from the primordial darkness.
Flowers adorned his divine feathered headdress like drops of dew;
And amidst the flowers of his sacred feathered crown
Hummingbird, the primeval bird, gamboled and flew.
Even while our first Father created his own divine body,
He existed in the midst of the primordial winds.
Before he conceived his future earthly dwelling,
before he conceived his future heavens, his future earth —
Hummingbird refreshed his mouth.
It was Hummingbird who sustained Ñamandú with the fruits of paradise.
Our Father Ñamandú, the First,
before he created his future paradise
He did not see the darkness
although the sun did not yet exist.
The reflection of his own heart illuminated him;
His divine wisdom served as the sun.
Our true Father Ñamandú, the First,
dwelt amidst the primordial winds;
Where he stopped to rest
the Owl produced darkness:
for already the cradle of night existed.
Before the true Father Ñamandú, the First,
created his future paradise, before the creation of the first earth,
He existed in the midst of the primordial winds.
The primal winds in which Our Father existed return
with the arrival of the primal space-time
with the resurgence of the primitive season.
As the old season ends
with the flowering of the lapacho tree
the winds bring the new season.
The new winds come, the new space,
bringing the resurrection of space-time. — Guarani Creation Myth
The primal winds in which Our Father existed return
with the arrival of the primal space-time
with the resurgence of the primitive season.
As the old season ends
with the flowering of the lapacho tree
the winds bring the new season.
The new winds come, the new space,
bringing the resurrection of space-time. — Guarani Creation Myth
[Chorus]
I'm on the rock and then I check a stock
I have to run like a fugitive to save the life I live
I'm going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
I'm going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
Iron Lion Zion
[Verse]
I'm on the run but I have got no gun
See they want to be the star
So they fighting tribal war
And they saying Iron like a Lion in Zion
Iron like a Lion in Zion
Iron Lion Zion
[Chorus]
I'm on the rock, running and you running
I take a stock, running like a fugitive
I had to run like a fugitive just to save the life I live
I am going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
I am going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
[Outro]
Iron Lion Zion, Iron Lion Zion, Iron Lion Zion
Iron like a Lion in Zion, Iron like a lion in Zion
Iron Like a Lion in Zion — Bob Marley
Haile Selassie did not die.
Because Haile Selassie is God.
And God cannot die. — An anonymous Rasta
I think that we, non-Rasta folks exchanging ideas on an internet Forum, can barely catch a glimpse (if at all) of what Haile Selassie meant to the Jamaican Rasta circa the early 1970's. It wasn't just politics. There was a strong political element there, sure. But Rastafari is a religion. And it involves the ritual consumption of tetrahydrocannabinol, which is a psychoactive drug. In other words, Rastas smoke weed for religious reasons, literally. Now imagine that during a ritual smoking of weed, in that context and in those circumstances, Rastas have a religious experience, as if it were a divine revelation, that Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, is indeed the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora.
Who are we to say that their religious experience is somehow less religious than the religious experiences of Protestants or Catholics, for example? — Arcane Sandwich
Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The king is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
The King is one of them. Who is to say that the King is not the Great Chinggis Khaan? — Arcane Sandwich
Knees be knelt and heads be bowed, if the Great (Tao) Chinggis Khaan is the King. — Arcane Sandwich
Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora? — Arcane Sandwich
Awaking the Centuries
In the books of what will be
Written by the demon lord?
Never lift your head up to the east
'cause darkness wakes the beast!
Der Kerzen Schein
Er leuchtet fahl
Als das Sonnenlicht er stahl
Und nur das gro_e Himmelszelt
Bezeugt das Ende dieser Welt
So feed the spark
Welcome to the land of dark
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
Take my hand
Forgotten in the promised land
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
The knowledge, brought to the world
Is growing with a bitter taste
In a dream I saw things that will be
Centuries away
Des Mondes Schein
Er leuchtet fahl
Das Herz der Finsternis er stahl
Nun glei_end Lichte ihn umgibt
Und doch des Menschen Hoffnung siegt...?
So feed the spark
Welcome to the land of dark
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
Take my hand
Forgotten in the promised land
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
The night when evil steps out of the dark
And the cross is rising again
And fires are keeping the light
Burn, my friend...
And the sign of humanity is burning tonight
I can't escape from this ritual silence
Humanity's burning tonight
When I open my eyes
I see soldiers in the fields
Dead bodies on the ground
There are children in-between
Explosions shock the land
And the evil shows its face
The one called Hister rises
This is the fall of grace...
Beast ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers
The greater part of the region will be against the Hister
The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage
When the German child will observe nothing
In the books of what will be
Written by the demon lord?
Never lift your head up to the east
'cause darkness wakes the beast!
Der Kerzen Schein
Er leuchtet fahl
Als das Sonnenlicht er stahl
Und nur das gro_e Himmelszelt
Bezeugt das Ende dieser Welt
So feed the spark
Welcome to the land of dark
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
Take my hand
Forgotten in the promised land
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
The knowledge, brought to the world
Is growing with a bitter taste
In a dream I saw things that will be
Centuries away
So feed the spark
Welcome to the land of dark
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
Take my hand
Forgotten in the promised land
Death in all the centuries is what I left behind
And the sign of humanity is burning tonight
I can't escape from this ritual silence
Humanity's burning tonight — Haggard
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Being great, it flows
It flows far away.
Having gone far, it returns. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The king is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them.
Man follows Earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
I'm always confused by "Heaven" and "Earth." Sometimes they mean sky and ground; sometimes the home of spirit and of humanity; sometimes yin and yang; sometimes light and dark. I see this as one depiction of the hierarchy of steps between the Tao and the king or humankind. It is presented in different steps in some other verses. As with many other elements in Taoist philosophy, it doesn't make sense to try to attach a specific definition to it. I see it as an impressionistic painting of how the world works. Just sort of soak in it.
As for "Tao follows what is natural," I'm not sure exactly what Lao Tzu is trying to tell us. I don't see as much significance in it as you do. I haven't sat down and really focused on the different verses in a long time. I probably should. — T Clark
I forgot - the translation you provided is by Gia-Fu Feng. If I remember correctly, Jane English provided the photographs in the book they wrote together. If I weren't so lazy I would go check on that. — T Clark
This is something I've thought about a lot - the idea of returning. This is how I think of it now - The Tao gives rise to the 10,000 things, which then returns to the Tao. That means that this process is taking place continuously and continually. The Tao didn't give rise to the multiplicity of the world once, it does it over and over. It's always doing it. I haven't heard that interpretation elsewhere, so I don't know if others would agree with it. — T Clark
The Permanent Quantum 'Vacuum' Tao rearranges into the temporaries which may persist somewhat until they unarrange and perish, the Tao ever remaining as itself, before, during, and after, as the temporaries are not new substance but directly the Tao quantum fields. — PoeticUniverse
So if nature is the manifest world
— Janus
Is it? Perhaps it is the real world instead. Perhaps Nature is Reality Itself. Tao (Greatness) is simply a manifestation of Nature. — Arcane Sandwich
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
The preceding verse has nothing to do with Nature, nor with what is natural. It is speaking about Tao (Greatness). That is the name that Lao Tzu (Laozi) gives it, because he does not know its name. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. We call it great, only for the lack of a better word, as Laozi (Lao Tzu) says. — Arcane Sandwich
So if nature is the manifest world ( which seems to be the only option left) the Dao preceded it according to the verse in question. — Janus
The Tao follows what is natural. It does not say that Greatness follows Greatness, or that the Tao follows itself. There are translations that make this mistake, but Jane English did not make this mistake in her translation — Arcane Sandwich
Please explain the equivocation going on, to the best of your ability. — Arcane Sandwich
Please explain the equivocation going on, to the best of your ability. — Arcane Sandwich
See the above and provide unequivocal distinctions as I have requested. — Janus
If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake? — Janus
25
There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.
The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.
Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself. — Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
So then in your understanding what is Nature according to Lao Tzu? — Janus
How do you understand the difference between the manifest world and "reality itself". Are you invoking the phenomenon/ noumenon distinction? If so it sounds like you are equating nature with the noumenal. But then how would you draw a distinction between
Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and Earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)
and the noumenal? — Janus
1
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding. — Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
One
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery. — Translated by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989
Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself. — Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988
That is what the Ancient Roman philosophers called the Quaestio here. — Arcane Sandwich
and the noumenal?
— Janus
I'll let Lao Tzu himself answer you question, in the very first line of the Tao Te Ching: — Arcane Sandwich
So, Man follows the Earth, which follows the Universe, which follows the Tao. No mention of Nature there. — Janus
In some other translations, the last line says "Tao follows itself". That, is an entirely different interpretation. — Arcane Sandwich
Man follows what is Great
Earth follows what is Great
Heaven follows what is Great
What is Great follows what is natural. — Arcane Sandwich
If you cannot say what you think Nature is, then how can say it is different than the Tao? — Janus
"What is natural" = Nature. — Arcane Sandwich
So, you do equate the Dao with the noumenal? — Janus
I still have no clue what you think "Nature" refers to, and much less how it could be different than the Dao. — Janus
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