• Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Twenty-five

    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.

    Being great, it flows
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, it returns.

    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.

    Man follows Earth.
    Earth follows heaven.
    Heaven follows the Tao.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    "Tao follows what is natural". Therefore, if you wish to follow the Tao itself, do not follow the Tao itself, follow instead what the Tao itself follows: you should follow what is natural, not the Tao itself.

    "What is natural" = Nature.

    In some other translations, the last line says "Tao follows itself". That, is an entirely different interpretation.

    Tao = great

    Therefore: Great is great (Tao is Tao),
    Heaven is Tao
    Earth is Tao
    The king is also Tao

    Man follows what is Great
    Earth follows what is Great
    Heaven follows what is Great
    What is Great follows what is natural.

    Therefore, What is Great (Tao) follows Nature (what is not Tao).

    Therefore, One should not follow what is Great (Tao), one should instead follow Nature (what is not Tao).

    EDIT: Audiovisual material for this OP:



    EDIT 2: These are the lyrics.

    Blessed from heaven to his queen mother
    Brought unity to blue sealed Mongols
    The bearer of the eternal Tengri
    The lord of the Khamag Mongol
    The Great Chinggis Khaan

    Called by Teb Tengri
    Bestowed to enrich the world
    The bearer of the eternal Tengri
    The lord of the blue Mongol
    The Great Chinggis Khaan

    The king of the great Mongols
    The king of the blue world
    The scourge of the eternal Tengri
    The Great Chinggis Khaan

    Cherished the wisdom of thinkers
    Declared deliverance and the Gereg
    The bearer of the eternal Tengri
    The king of the blue world
    The Great Chinggis Khaan

    Knees be knelt and heads be bowed
    Engaged the world with the wisdom of Tengri
    Declared the empire with law and order
    The scourge of the eternal Tengri
    — The HU
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Being great, it flows
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, it returns.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    Being Tao, Greatness itself flows
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, Greatness itself returns.

    EDIT: The audiovisual material for this comment is the following.

  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    @Wayfarer you are formally and officially invited to state your opinion on such matters. As everyone is.

    EDIT: @Moliere this might interest you, given our most recent philosophical conversation elsewhere on this Forum.
  • Janus
    16.7k
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    So if nature is the manifest world the Dao preceded it according to this verse. We cannot follow that which is
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,

    But it is also
    Ever present and in motion. which is also Dao but sounds like a description of nature. So, there seems to be some equivocation going on.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    So if nature is the manifest worldJanus

    Is it? Perhaps it is the real world instead. Perhaps Nature is Reality Itself. Tao (Greatness) is simply a manifestation of Nature.

    according to this verse.Janus

    The preceding verse has nothing to do with Nature, nor with what is natural. It is speaking about Tao (Greatness). That is the name that Lao Tzu (Laozi) gives it, because he does not know its name. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. We call it great, only for the lack of a better word, as Laozi (Lao Tzu) says.

    We cannot follow that which isJanus

    No, we cannot. That is the reason why the last line of 25 says: The Tao follows what is natural. It does not say that Greatness follows Greatness, or that the Tao follows itself. There are translations that make this mistake, but Jane English did not make this mistake in her translation, which is the one that we are using in this Thread. Feel free to explain why we should include other translations.

    So, there seems to be some equivocation going onJanus

    Please explain the equivocation going on, to the best of your ability.
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I'm always reticent when it comes to this text as it is deeply intertwined with Chinese culture and language and my knowledge of them is cursory. But I can see parallels in other Axial Age texts and concepts. The idea I'd like to call out is an expression 'the uncarved block' which is found in Taoist texts. It refers to the unconditioned, the unmade, which is also the subject of the above. There is no parallel in the English lexicon or culture. It is associated with ancient asceticism and shamanic or yogic practices of trance states, what Indian culture would call samadhi. But these are non-conceptual states, hence 'for the lack of a better word' and 'I do not know its name'. Other like sayings are 'the nameless if the mother of the ten thousand things'. Some parallels can be drawn with Plotinus' One, but with great intepretive care.

    Therefore, One should not follow what is Great (Tao), one should instead follow Nature (what is not Tao).Arcane Sandwich

    But this should never be confused with modern naturalism, which has been conscientiously defined to exclude such nefarious and amorphous ideas.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    But this should never be confused with modern naturalism, which has been conscientiously defined to exclude such nefarious and amorphous ideas.Wayfarer

    I agree, 100%.

    I'm always reticent when it comes to this text as it is deeply intertwined with Chinese culture and language and my knowledge of them is cursory. But I can see parallels in other Axial Age texts and concepts. The idea I'd like to call out is an expression 'the uncarved block' which is found in Taoist texts. It refers to the unconditioned, the unmade, which is also the subject of the above. There is no parallel in the English lexicon or culture. It is associated with ancient asceticism and shamanic or yogic practices of trance states, what Indian culture would call samadhi. But these are non-conceptual states, hence 'for the lack of a better word' and 'I do not know its name'. Other like sayings are 'the nameless if the mother of the ten thousand things'. Some parallels can be drawn with Plotinus' One, but with great intepretive care.Wayfarer

    I tend to associate this passage with what Hesiod says in his Theogony about Xaos (Chaos). I also relate it to the Primitive Customs of the Hummingbird of Guarani Mythology. Is this senseless to you?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I can see parallels in other Axial Age texts and concepts. The idea I'd like to call out is an expression 'the uncarved block' which is found in Taoist texts. It refers to the unconditioned, the unmade, which is also the subject of the above. There is no parallel in the English lexicon or culture.Wayfarer

    How would you explain this part, specifically, to an English audience?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The King is one of them. Who is to say that the King is not the Great Chinggis Khaan?

    Cherished the wisdom of thinkers
    Declared deliverance and the Gereg
    The bearer of the eternal Tengri
    The king of the blue world
    The Great Chinggis Khaan

    Knees be knelt and heads be bowed
    Engaged the world with the wisdom of Tengri
    Declared the empire with law and order
    The scourge of the eternal Tengri
    — The HU

    Knees be knelt and heads be bowed, if the Great (Tao) Chinggis Khaan is the King.
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    No that's definitely in the ball park! 'Axial age', as I say. That's a very useful idea in this context. It's associated with Karl Jaspers but has also been written on by Karen Armstrong. It's about the fact that around 6th-3rd centuries B.C.E. a number of prophets and sages were active, including Pythagoras, Lao Tsu, the Buddha, and others, who set the wheels in motion for what were to become the great cultural formations of India, China and the West.

    How would you explain this part, specifically, to an English audience?Arcane Sandwich

    I studied comparative religion, and one of the major authors in that field is Mircea Eliade, a Romanian-American active at the University of Chicago mid-century. It takes some reading. The problem with modern Western culture is that so many of those ideas are stereotyped under the heading of religion, when they're very different from how that term is usually interpreted.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I studied comparative religion, and one of the major authors in that field is Mircea Eliade, a Romanian-American active at the University of Chicago mid-century.Wayfarer

    Yes, I'm familiar with his work, I had to study it at the Uni, it was part of the curricula. I don't agree with Eliade's views. I'm more sympathetic to Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth here. But Campbell could be wrong and Eliade could be right, for all I know. This area isn't exactly my specialty either.

    The problem with modern Western culture is that so many of those ideas are stereotyped under the heading of religion,Wayfarer

    Yes, that is indeed the main problem here.

    when they're very different from how that term is usually interpreted.Wayfarer

    Exactly.
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    Chinese dynastic polemics, I would say. Again I have very little fluency in these texts, better to find a Chinese speaker!
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    better to find a Chinese speaker!Wayfarer

    They don't like me. They translated one of my papers on Meillassoux and Badiou, and they laughed at what I said. And what's even worse is that they said all of that in Chinese. I had to translate it myself, with the help of Google Translate.

    EDIT: And they don't like me, even though I know more about heavy metal than they do. For example, the best heavy metal band from China is Tang Dynasty. And the Chinese people that read my philosophical papers don't even know that Tang Dynasty is a heavy metal band from China.

  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I tend to associate this passage with what Hesiod says in his Theogony about Xaos (Chaos). I also relate it to the Primitive Customs of the Hummingbird of Guarani Mythology. Is this senseless to you?Arcane Sandwich

    No that's definitely in the ball park! 'Axial age', as I say. That's a very useful idea in this context. It's associated with Karl Jaspers but has also been written on by Karen Armstrong. It's about the fact that around 6th-3rd centuries B.C.E. a number of prophets and sages were active, including Pythagoras, Lao Tsu, the Buddha, and others, who set the wheels in motion for what were to become the great cultural formations of India, China and the West.Wayfarer

    Hail, children of Zeus!
    Grant lovely song
    and celebrate the holy race of the deathless gods who are forever,
    those that were born of Earth and starry Heaven and gloomy Night
    and them that briny Sea did rear.

    Tell how at the first gods and earth came to be,
    and rivers,
    and the boundless sea with its raging swell,
    and the gleaming stars,
    and the wide heaven above,
    and the gods who were born of them, givers of good things,
    and how they divided their wealth,
    and how they shared their honors amongst them,
    and also how at the first they took many-folded Olympus.

    These things declare to me from the beginning, you Muses who dwell in the house of Olympus,
    and tell me which of them first came to be.

    In truth at first Chaos came to be,

    but next wide-bosomed Earth,
    the ever-sure foundation of all
    the deathless ones who hold the peaks of snowy Olympus,
    and dim Tartarus in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth,

    and Eros (Love),
    fairest among the deathless gods,
    who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind
    and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them.

    From Chaos came forth Erebus and black Night;
    but of Night were born
    Aether
    and Day
    Hesiod (Theogony)
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The Primitive Customs of the Hummingbird
    Our Father, the Absolute First
    created himself from the primordial darkness.

    He created the divine soles of his feet,
    His small round throne.
    He created them as he grew in the primordial darkness.

    The reflection of his divine wisdom, his divine all-hearing
    His divine palms holding his scepter and flowering branches
    these Ñamandú created as he grew from the primordial darkness.

    Flowers adorned his divine feathered headdress like drops of dew;
    And amidst the flowers of his sacred feathered crown
    Hummingbird, the primeval bird, gamboled and flew.

    Even while our first Father created his own divine body,
    He existed in the midst of the primordial winds.

    Before he conceived his future earthly dwelling,
    before he conceived his future heavens, his future earth —
    Hummingbird refreshed his mouth.

    It was Hummingbird who sustained Ñamandú with the fruits of paradise.

    Our Father Ñamandú, the First,
    before he created his future paradise
    He did not see the darkness
    although the sun did not yet exist.

    The reflection of his own heart illuminated him;
    His divine wisdom served as the sun.

    Our true Father Ñamandú, the First,
    dwelt amidst the primordial winds;
    Where he stopped to rest
    the Owl produced darkness:
    for already the cradle of night existed.

    Before the true Father Ñamandú, the First,
    created his future paradise, before the creation of the first earth,
    He existed in the midst of the primordial winds.

    The primal winds in which Our Father existed return
    with the arrival of the primal space-time
    with the resurgence of the primitive season.
    As the old season ends
    with the flowering of the lapacho tree
    the winds bring the new season.
    The new winds come, the new space,
    bringing the resurrection of space-time.
    Guarani Creation Myth
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    The primal winds in which Our Father existed return
    with the arrival of the primal space-time
    with the resurgence of the primitive season.
    As the old season ends
    with the flowering of the lapacho tree
    the winds bring the new season.
    The new winds come, the new space,
    bringing the resurrection of space-time.
    Guarani Creation Myth



    [Chorus]
    I'm on the rock and then I check a stock
    I have to run like a fugitive to save the life I live
    I'm going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
    I'm going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
    Iron Lion Zion

    [Verse]
    I'm on the run but I have got no gun
    See they want to be the star
    So they fighting tribal war
    And they saying Iron like a Lion in Zion
    Iron like a Lion in Zion
    Iron Lion Zion

    [Chorus]
    I'm on the rock, running and you running
    I take a stock, running like a fugitive
    I had to run like a fugitive just to save the life I live
    I am going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion
    I am going to be Iron like a Lion in Zion

    [Outro]
    Iron Lion Zion, Iron Lion Zion, Iron Lion Zion
    Iron like a Lion in Zion, Iron like a lion in Zion
    Iron Like a Lion in Zion
    — Bob Marley

    EDIT:

    Haile Selassie did not die.
    Because Haile Selassie is God.
    And God cannot die.
    — An anonymous Rasta

    EDIT 2:

    I think that we, non-Rasta folks exchanging ideas on an internet Forum, can barely catch a glimpse (if at all) of what Haile Selassie meant to the Jamaican Rasta circa the early 1970's. It wasn't just politics. There was a strong political element there, sure. But Rastafari is a religion. And it involves the ritual consumption of tetrahydrocannabinol, which is a psychoactive drug. In other words, Rastas smoke weed for religious reasons, literally. Now imagine that during a ritual smoking of weed, in that context and in those circumstances, Rastas have a religious experience, as if it were a divine revelation, that Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, is indeed the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora.

    Who are we to say that their religious experience is somehow less religious than the religious experiences of Protestants or Catholics, for example?
    Arcane Sandwich

    EDIT 3:

    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    The King is one of them. Who is to say that the King is not the Great Chinggis Khaan?Arcane Sandwich

    Knees be knelt and heads be bowed, if the Great (Tao) Chinggis Khaan is the King.Arcane Sandwich

    Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie, Emperor of Ethiopia, the Second Incarnation of Christ, the Lion of Judah, who will unify all the peoples of Africa and all of the peoples of the African diaspora?Arcane Sandwich

    Perhaps the following people (to answer my own question):



    EDIT: And here are the lyrics to that:

    Awaking the Centuries

    In the books of what will be
    Written by the demon lord?

    Never lift your head up to the east
    'cause darkness wakes the beast!

    Der Kerzen Schein
    Er leuchtet fahl
    Als das Sonnenlicht er stahl
    Und nur das gro_e Himmelszelt
    Bezeugt das Ende dieser Welt


    So feed the spark
    Welcome to the land of dark
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    Take my hand
    Forgotten in the promised land
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    The knowledge, brought to the world
    Is growing with a bitter taste
    In a dream I saw things that will be
    Centuries away

    Des Mondes Schein
    Er leuchtet fahl
    Das Herz der Finsternis er stahl
    Nun glei_end Lichte ihn umgibt
    Und doch des Menschen Hoffnung siegt...?


    So feed the spark
    Welcome to the land of dark
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    Take my hand
    Forgotten in the promised land
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    The night when evil steps out of the dark
    And the cross is rising again
    And fires are keeping the light
    Burn, my friend...

    And the sign of humanity is burning tonight
    I can't escape from this ritual silence
    Humanity's burning tonight

    When I open my eyes
    I see soldiers in the fields
    Dead bodies on the ground
    There are children in-between
    Explosions shock the land
    And the evil shows its face
    The one called Hister rises
    This is the fall of grace...

    Beast ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers
    The greater part of the region will be against the Hister
    The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage
    When the German child will observe nothing

    In the books of what will be
    Written by the demon lord?
    Never lift your head up to the east
    'cause darkness wakes the beast!

    Der Kerzen Schein
    Er leuchtet fahl
    Als das Sonnenlicht er stahl
    Und nur das gro_e Himmelszelt
    Bezeugt das Ende dieser Welt


    So feed the spark
    Welcome to the land of dark
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    Take my hand
    Forgotten in the promised land
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    The knowledge, brought to the world
    Is growing with a bitter taste
    In a dream I saw things that will be
    Centuries away

    So feed the spark
    Welcome to the land of dark
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    Take my hand
    Forgotten in the promised land
    Death in all the centuries is what I left behind

    And the sign of humanity is burning tonight
    I can't escape from this ritual silence
    Humanity's burning tonight
    — Haggard
  • T Clark
    14.2k
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I think this is a pretty straightforward summary of the Taoist cosmology.

    Being great, it flows
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, it returns.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    This is something I've thought about a lot - the idea of returning. This is how I think of it now - The Tao gives rise to the 10,000 things, which then returns to the Tao. That means that this process is taking place continuously and continually. The Tao didn't give rise to the multiplicity of the world once, it does it over and over. It's always doing it. I haven't heard that interpretation elsewhere, so I don't know if others would agree with it.

    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.

    Man follows Earth.
    Earth follows heaven.
    Heaven follows the Tao.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I'm always confused by "Heaven" and "Earth." Sometimes they mean sky and ground; sometimes the home of spirit and of humanity; sometimes yin and yang; sometimes light and dark. I see this as one depiction of the hierarchy of steps between the Tao and the king or humankind. It is presented in different steps in some other verses. As with many other elements in Taoist philosophy, it doesn't make sense to try to attach a specific definition to it. I see it as an impressionistic painting of how the world works. Just sort of soak in it.

    As for "Tao follows what is natural," I'm not sure exactly what Lao Tzu is trying to tell us. I don't see as much significance in it as you do. I haven't sat down and really focused on the different verses in a long time. I probably should.
  • T Clark
    14.2k

    I forgot - the translation you provided is by Gia-Fu Feng. If I remember correctly, Jane English provided the photographs in the book they wrote together. If I weren't so lazy I would go check on that.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    I'm always confused by "Heaven" and "Earth." Sometimes they mean sky and ground; sometimes the home of spirit and of humanity; sometimes yin and yang; sometimes light and dark. I see this as one depiction of the hierarchy of steps between the Tao and the king or humankind. It is presented in different steps in some other verses. As with many other elements in Taoist philosophy, it doesn't make sense to try to attach a specific definition to it. I see it as an impressionistic painting of how the world works. Just sort of soak in it.

    As for "Tao follows what is natural," I'm not sure exactly what Lao Tzu is trying to tell us. I don't see as much significance in it as you do. I haven't sat down and really focused on the different verses in a long time. I probably should.
    T Clark

    Understood.

    I forgot - the translation you provided is by Gia-Fu Feng. If I remember correctly, Jane English provided the photographs in the book they wrote together. If I weren't so lazy I would go check on that.T Clark

    Thank you very much then, it seems that I have made a mistake in attributing authorship to Jane English.
  • PoeticUniverse
    1.5k
    This is something I've thought about a lot - the idea of returning. This is how I think of it now - The Tao gives rise to the 10,000 things, which then returns to the Tao. That means that this process is taking place continuously and continually. The Tao didn't give rise to the multiplicity of the world once, it does it over and over. It's always doing it. I haven't heard that interpretation elsewhere, so I don't know if others would agree with it.T Clark

    I agree.

    The Permanent Quantum 'Vacuum' Tao rearranges into the temporaries which may persist somewhat until they unarrange and perish, the Tao ever remaining as itself, before, during, and after, as the temporaries are not new substance but directly the Tao quantum fields.


    And fear not lest Existence closing your
    Account, and mine, should know the like no more;
    The Eternal Saki from that Bowl has pour’d
    Millions of Bubbles like us, and will pour.


    We are as beings of the everlasting light dream,
    As products time and time again by its means—
    Of the eternal return, as baubles blown and burst,
    Though frames of time that quench life’s thirst.

    Some time it needed to learn Everything for,
    And now well knows how these bubbles to pour,
    Of existence, in some like universe,
    As those that wrote your poem and mine, every verse.

    Yet worry you that this Cosmos is the last,
    That the likes of us will become the past,
    Space wondering whither whence we went
    After the last of us her life has spent?

    The Eternal Saki has formed trillions of baubles
    Like ours, for e’er—the comings and passings
    Of which it ever emits to immerse
    In the universal bubbles blown and burst.

    So fear not that a debit close your
    Account and mine, knowing the like no more;
    The Eternal Source from its pot has pour’d
    Zillions of bubbles like ours, and will pour.

    What though the sky with its blue canopy
    Doth close us in so that we can not see,  
    In the eterne Cupbearer’s wine methinks
    There float a myriad bubbles like to me.

    So, as thus thou lives on yester’s credit line,
    In nowhere’s midst, now in this life of thine,
    As of its bowl our cup of brew is mixed
    Into the state of being that’s called ‘mine’.

    Behind the Veil, being that which e’er thrives,
    The Eternal ‘IS’ has ever been alive,
    For that which hath no onset cannot die,
    Nor a point from which to have any guide.
    (But of what it is constrained to do.)
  • T Clark
    14.2k
    The Permanent Quantum 'Vacuum' Tao rearranges into the temporaries which may persist somewhat until they unarrange and perish, the Tao ever remaining as itself, before, during, and after, as the temporaries are not new substance but directly the Tao quantum fields.PoeticUniverse

    I'm not sure if you are referring to the Tao as literally the quantum vacuum or as a metaphor. I think taking it literally is mixing up metaphysics and physics.

    What is the source of the poem you included. Is it your own? What can you tell us about it?
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Please explain the following song from the POV of your Theory about the Universe:

  • Janus
    16.7k
    So if nature is the manifest world
    — Janus

    Is it? Perhaps it is the real world instead. Perhaps Nature is Reality Itself. Tao (Greatness) is simply a manifestation of Nature.
    Arcane Sandwich

    How do you understand the difference between the manifest world and "reality itself". Are you invoking the phenomenon/ noumenon distinction? If so it sounds like you would be equating nature with the noumenal. But then how would you draw a distinction between the Dao as described in the verse below

    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.
    Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    the noumenal and Nature?

    The preceding verse has nothing to do with Nature, nor with what is natural. It is speaking about Tao (Greatness). That is the name that Lao Tzu (Laozi) gives it, because he does not know its name. Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. We call it great, only for the lack of a better word, as Laozi (Lao Tzu) says.Arcane Sandwich

    So if nature is the manifest world ( which seems to be the only option left) the Dao preceded it according to the verse in question.Janus

    Perhps you have another option in mind: you say nature is not the manifest world, and you also say that the verse (which sounds like an allusion to the noumenal) has nothing to do with Nature but is about the Dao but youo haven't spelled out just what you think Nature is. So then in your understanding what is Nature according to Lao Tzu?

    The Tao follows what is natural. It does not say that Greatness follows Greatness, or that the Tao follows itself. There are translations that make this mistake, but Jane English did not make this mistake in her translationArcane Sandwich

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake?

    Please explain the equivocation going on, to the best of your ability.Arcane Sandwich

    See the above and provide unequivocal distinctions between the Dao, the manifest world, "Reality itself" and Nature as I have requested.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    Please explain the equivocation going on, to the best of your ability. — Arcane Sandwich


    See the above and provide unequivocal distinctions as I have requested.
    Janus

    Hmmm...

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake?Janus

    Ok, I will cite another English version of chapter 25, because it is the best that I can do, under these circumstances, which I cannot transcend unless I learn Mandarin (at the very least).

    25
    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao.

    It flows through all things,
    inside and outside, and returns
    to the origin of all things.

    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.
    Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

    So then in your understanding what is Nature according to Lao Tzu?Janus

    That is what the Ancient Roman philosophers called the Quaestio here.

    How do you understand the difference between the manifest world and "reality itself". Are you invoking the phenomenon/ noumenon distinction? If so it sounds like you are equating nature with the noumenal. But then how would you draw a distinction between

    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)


    and the noumenal?
    Janus

    I'll let Lao Tzu himself answer you question, in the very first line of the Tao Te Ching:

    1
    The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things.

    Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
    Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.
    Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

    EDIT: And here is another translation of that:

    One

    The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
    The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
    The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
    The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
    Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
    Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
    These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
    this appears as darkness.
    Darkness within darkness.
    The gate to all mystery.
    Translated by Gia-Fu Feng (馮家福 Feng Jia-fu, 1919–1985) and Jane English (1942–) Vintage Books, 1989
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    @Wayfarer, @T Clark, what does the following phrase mean: "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao."

    It's the exact same words in the two translations that I've quoted in the preceding comment. What does it mean?
  • Janus
    16.7k
    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.
    Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

    So, Man follows the Earth, which follows the Universe, which follows the Tao. No mention of Nature there.

    That is what the Ancient Roman philosophers called the Quaestio here.Arcane Sandwich

    If you cannot say what you think Nature is, then how can say it is different than the Tao?

    and the noumenal?
    — Janus

    I'll let Lao Tzu himself answer you question, in the very first line of the Tao Te Ching:
    Arcane Sandwich

    So, you do equate the Dao with the noumenal?

    I still have no clue what you think "Nature" refers to, and much less how it could be different than the Dao.
  • Wayfarer
    23.5k
    My interpretation is that it is pointing to the inadequacy of spoken language to convey the depth of meaning that is inherent in 'the Way'. Arguments about it, 'it means this', 'no it doesn't, it means that', and so forth, have already missed the mark. The true way or eternal Tao is not a verbal expression or description or anything that can be said. Like I said every time you asked me: there is something you find in Eastern philosophies, 'the Unconditioned'. It's not God, or not like a 'sky-father' figure. But then as soon as we ask 'well what is it then?' then we've missed the mark again.
  • Arcane Sandwich
    2.2k
    So, Man follows the Earth, which follows the Universe, which follows the Tao. No mention of Nature there.Janus

    In some other translations, the last line says "Tao follows itself". That, is an entirely different interpretation.Arcane Sandwich

    Man follows what is Great
    Earth follows what is Great
    Heaven follows what is Great
    What is Great follows what is natural.
    Arcane Sandwich

    If you cannot say what you think Nature is, then how can say it is different than the Tao?Janus

    Hmmm...

    Nature = "what is natural". From the following:

    "What is natural" = Nature.Arcane Sandwich

    1) Tao = great.
    2) If Tao = Nature, then:
    3) Nature = great.

    However,

    4) "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao."
    5) So, if Tao = Nature, then:
    6) The Nature that can be told is not the eternal Nature.

    So, you do equate the Dao with the noumenal?Janus

    Hmmm...

    I still have no clue what you think "Nature" refers to, and much less how it could be different than the Dao.Janus

    Nature = what is natural.
    Tao follows what is natural.
    Tao follows only itself.
    The Nature (Tao) that can be told is not the eternal Nature (Tao).
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