I agree. In the context of this thread, the relevant rephrasings are probably:
a) I think: "The Eiffel Tower is 400m tall".
b) I think: "I think the Eiffel Tower is 400m tall". — J
All these comparisons suggest (and those of 1967a, pp. 23-24; 1962, p. xxiv; 1984, pp. 363, 369; 1967b, p. 354, 359 explicitly state) that numbers, functions, and thought contents are independent of thinkers "in the same way" that physical objects are.
In what ways does some work of fiction shed light on reality that some work of non-fiction does not? — Harry Hindu
Right, so Pat is making a statement about their uncertainty, not about the actual state of some oak tree. — Harry Hindu
It is only useful if I'm not there looking at the same tree Pat is, or if I'm interested in what Pat is thinking, not what the oak tree is doing. — Harry Hindu
Which thought bears more truth, a visual of an oak tree shedding its leaves, or scribbles of your own voice in your head saying, "I think the oak tree shedding its leaves." — Harry Hindu
How do you determine if some string of scribbles bears truth? — Harry Hindu
Therefore adding "I think" to a statement seems to contribute in making the statement obscure in its exact meaning. — Corvus
When I look out the window and say to myself, ‛That oak tree is shedding its leaves,’ I am not aware of also, and simultaneously, thinking anything along the lines of ‛I think that the oak tree is shedding its leaves.’ — J
Yes, which is the problem when Pat says:
When I look out the window and say to myself, ‛That oak tree is shedding its leaves,’ I am not aware of also, and simultaneously, thinking anything along the lines of ‛I think that the oak tree is shedding its leaves.’ — J — RussellA
He's really saying judgment shouldn't be called a propositional attitude, despite what all the traditional sources maintain. The entire separation of force (judgment, attitude) and content is off base, according to him. That's why it's kind of an outrageous viewpoint on the face of it. — J
When you are thinking, "water is H2O", or "the oak tree is shedding its leaves", what is it like for you? What form do these thoughts take in your mind? How do you know you are thinking these things? What exactly is present in your mind, and that you are pointing at when telling me what you are thinking, when thinking these things?I can see that "scribbles" is doing the work of a technical term for you, but I'm honestly not sure what you mean to be contrasting "scribbles" with. Possibly that's why I'm having trouble understanding your argument. — J
or a measurer to measure them? The observer effect?Why I say that is an abstraction, is because all such facts are, at least, expressed in symbolic form (3>2, A=A, etc). So Frege is claiming such facts have a kind of mind-independent validity. But what has always seemed fairly clear to me, is that they can only be grasped by a mind. I mean, you're not going to find any 'metaphysical primitives' in the phenomenal world - they all rely on the ability of a rational observer to discern them. — Wayfarer
Would you say that the sentence "I think P", is actually two sentences? — Corvus
Probably because the former is a much easier read and provides some escapism. Are you not more capable of learning about friendship by having friends in reality?As The Lord of the Rings is one of the best-selling books ever written, with over 150 million copies sold, more people have learnt about the nature of friendship and struggle from the Lord of the Rings than the relatively small number of people who read books on sociobiology and psychology. — RussellA
That's what I said. Pat is referring to their state of mind of being uncertain, not referring to the state of an oak tree.Right, so Pat is making a statement about their uncertainty, not about the actual state of some oak tree.
— Harry Hindu
No, She is making a statement about her uncertainty about a fact. — RussellA
Yes, but you are saying that thinking is expressing uncertainty. So why would I read about things that other people thought if they were uncertain? When reading books about Caesar and events in Alaska, the writer does not seem to be uncertain to me. You don't seem to be uncertain that thoughts express uncertainty. You seem to be certain about some thoughts but not others. Why? Is every thought uncertain?Most of what we hear and read is about things we were never present, whether about Caesar or events in Alaska. — RussellA
Agreed.Truth is about the relationship between language and the world, such that language in the absence of a world can be neither true nor false, and the world in the absence of language can be neither true nor false. — RussellA
This part is confusing. Are not your thoughts part of the world? As such, is not some language that points to your thoughts either true or false? If I were to say, "RussellA is thinking about skinny dipping at the lake", wouldn't that be either true or false? I need to understand why you think that thoughts are not part of the world when they are about the world like language is.We can think about the meaning of words such as "the oak tree is shedding its leaves", and we can think about what we see, such as the oak tree is shedding its leaves.
Language is useful in that most of language refers to things and events we could never be present for, such as Kant's thoughts, the moon landing or Caesar's march into Rome
There is no truth or falsity in my seeing an oak tree shedding its leaves. There is no truth or falsity in the sentence "I think the oak tree is shedding its leaves".
There is only truth if the sentence is "the oak tree is shedding its leaves" and I see the oak tree shedding its leaves. — RussellA
That is the same conclusion I came to above, but you have now moved the goal posts to where the relationship between the world and truth exists as knowledge. The question now is, what form does knowledge take in your mind? Does everything you know take the form of scribbles and the sound of your voice making truth statements, or do you have other types of visual and auditory experiences that are not words, but the actual things themselves? For instance, when reading the Lord of the Rings and reading a description of the characters, does the visual of Frodo and Gandalf take the shape of more scribbles and sounds, or a visual of what these characters look like? When a movie was made, was the movie all in scribbles and a voice narrating the story, or was it moving pictures and sounds of swords clashing against armor and other sound effects?"The oak tree is shedding its leaves" is true IFF the oak tree is shedding its leaves.
"x" in language is true IFF x in the world
The problem is in knowing what exists in the world. — RussellA
When you are thinking, "water is H2O", or "the oak tree is shedding its leaves", what is it like for you? What form do these thoughts take in your mind? How do you know you are thinking these things? What exactly is present in your mind, and that you are pointing at when telling me what you are thinking, when thinking these things? — Harry Hindu
Are you not more capable of learning about friendship by having friends in reality? — Harry Hindu
Yes, but you are saying that thinking is expressing uncertainty. — Harry Hindu
I need to understand why you think that thoughts are not part of the world when they are about the world like language is...If you thinking something is exhibiting some form of uncertainty doesn't that mean that you have a sense that your thoughts might be false? — Harry Hindu
The question now is, what form does knowledge take in your mind? — Harry Hindu
For instance, when reading the Lord of the Rings and reading a description of the characters, does the visual of Frodo and Gandalf take the shape of more scribbles and sounds, or a visual of what these characters look like? — Harry Hindu
My personal belief is that rather than it being the case that "I have the thought p", it is more the case that "I am the thought p". — RussellA
I have never seen statements or propositions in colons and quotes in logical WFF. So, if you meant to just communicate what you thought to other folks, maybe it would be ok. But if you were trying to make up philosophical statements for analysis and debates, then those writings wouldn't be accepted as logical statements.
They don't look WFF to start with, and you cannot use them in the proofs or axiomatization. Hence they wouldn't fit into P and I think P of the OP title. So, I wouldn't use them as philosophical statements or propositions for logical analysis or reasoning. — Corvus
It looks clear if it were written in a message, diary or report of some sort. — Corvus
So, if you meant to just communicate what you thought to other folks, maybe it would be ok. — Corvus
numbers, functions, and thought contents are independent of thinkers "in the same way" that physical objects are.
Saying "I am the thought p." sounds even more unclear, mysterious and even spooky. — Corvus
Agreed. That was what I intended with my statement a), which I said was unproblematic. If I'm just mentioning a thought as something "I had" -- an event -- then its content doesn't affect the logical status of the report. — J
The mind is part of the physical brain? Exactly which part in the brain?The mind is somehow part of the physical brain. — RussellA
So when you say that you are the thought of p, you seem to be reducing yourself to only one aspect of the mind leaving out the rest of the mind and physical body.One aspect is what the mind is, such as the self, consciousness, the "I". Another aspect is what the mind does, such as has thoughts, ideas, feelings and emotions. — RussellA
I understand mind as a function of the brain and sensory organs of the body. You sound like a dualist i.e. mind and body as separate entities - mind residing in the brain somewhere. Would it be the case?How are these two aspects connected? — RussellA
So "I believe" wouldn't be a separate fact that could appear in a predication? Just asking . . . I think this is pretty close to Rödl, yes. — J
The mind is part of the physical brain? Exactly which part in the brain? — Corvus
So when you say that you are the thought of p, you seem to be reducing yourself to only one aspect of the mind leaving out the rest of the mind and physical body. — Corvus
I understand mind as a function of the brain and sensory organs of the body. You sound like a dualist i.e. mind and body as separate entities - mind residing in the brain somewhere. Would it be the case? — Corvus
Kant's failure to draw and maintain the distinction between thought and thinking about thought.
— creativesoul
Truly, I wasn't aware there was a problem... — J
Think about children's thought prior to their ability to think about other minds as well as their own. Their thought is most certainly not prefixable with "I think". When they say "That is a tree" it is not accompanied by any sort of unspoken or implied "I think". It is their thought nonetheless. — creativesoul
I think developmental considerations often give the lie to these theories. When a child runs up to a puppy to pet it, upon recognizing a puppy they are not saying to themselves excitedly, "I think puppy! I think puppy!" This seems fairly uncontroversial. — Leontiskos
Yes. I deal with a number of people on a daily basis that do not seem to understand how worldviews form, grow, and evolve over time and/or how they work. — creativesoul
One reason I opted out of further explanation earlier was based on the succinct manner in which you drew the distinction between self-conscious thought and conscious thought. That was enough to make the basic case against the claim at the heart of the OP. — creativesoul
My brain never moves alone from the livingroom to the kitchen. The brain moves with the body located in the head physically altogether. So your premise "If your brain moves" is not accepted, hence your argument is invalid.If your brain moves from the living room to the kitchen, does your mind remain in the living room? — RussellA
Tree has water and wood fibre in the content. Tree itself dies without water and the nutrients fed from the root.A tree has the form of a tree. What is the content of a tree? It can only be the tree itself. — RussellA
Mind as content sounds vacuous. Mind is a function of the brain and body. It feels, senses, perceives, believes, reasons, remembers and thinks. Mind itself is not content. Mind has contents.As with the tree example, the brain as form and mind as content cannot be separated. — RussellA
It sounds like unnecessary over reduction of "I" into a physical organ.No. As I think of "I" as my thoughts, I think of my mind as my brain. — RussellA
The "I think" is not supposed be some simultaneous, conscious "thinking about thought" or "thinking that I am now having thought X." — J
But now this occurs to me: Is it possible that you don’t countenance the idea of any thoughts that are not conscious? — J
Thinking p requires thinking p. No one disputes this. The question of the OP is whether thinking p requires self-consciously thinking p; whether it requires thinking "I think p." — Leontiskos
So therefore the “I think”, on that understanding, would be either present to consciousness or nonexistent? — J
And what is that supposed to mean? "I think" is a self-conscious, intentional act. Does Rödl think people engage in self-conscious, intentional acts un-self-consciously and unintentionally? Do they think "I think" without realizing that they think "I think"? — Leontiskos
So the claim of the OP by Rodl is <Every time p is thought, I think p is thought> — Leontiskos
Again, as I understand it what is at stake is self-conscious thought, not conscious thought — Leontiskos
"I think" is a self-conscious, intentional act. — Leontiskos
As the writer of the OP, I officially declare that we no longer have to use the umlaut when referring to Rodl. — J
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