• creativesoul
    10.5k
    The last twenty minutes

    The meat is from 2:15 to the end... For those who want to know how and or why this is is relevant and pertinent, watch the video in it's entirety... It's more about ethics according to the governing principles The United States was founded upon, as a representative republic. The judge lays out the case for how some have attempted to subvert the system of governance from within and in effect abolish the system of government in doing so.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k

    The way people work around this is throwing out stuff like "But Hunter Biden.. Clinton...But BLM caused riots at various capitols, and so on". All red herring/strawmen. It's basically gaslighting and relativizing things that one would otherwise generally find wrong. They also think that because he didn't directly say "invade the Capitol", he really didn't do anything wrong. Basically it's just "my-side-ism". Principles don't matter as much as "root for team red or blue". One difference with Watergate is that at least some congressmen and senators on the same side as Nixon decided that the principle of fairness was more important than party. Clearly a dangerous cult of personality.
  • creativesoul
    10.5k
    a dangerous cult of personality.schopenhauer1

    Indeed. Living Color's song has been revisited by myself several times in the past few years. The lyrics are spot on. Almost prescient...

    Have you already seen this video in it's enitrety?
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k
    Have you already seen this video in it's enitrety?creativesoul

    I watched some of it from your link. I mean, it's the same theme we've been hearing.. Party above principles. Maybe you should bullet point some specifics you want people to understand from it. No rational argument about how specific Trump people, alt-right, right-wingers, whatever you want to call them will convince, even the adjacent republicans that it was "wrong". Demographically, it's a dying party, and this is the death throws perhaps.. It will last another decade perhaps, I don't know.
  • creativesoul
    10.5k


    It's worth watching in it's entirety. It's not the same old theme...
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    totally agree with you. I live in Aus but my son is perm. resident in US, I now have two American grand-children. Trump has succeeded in poisoning a large part of the electorate by, in that creature Stephen Bannon's words, 'flooding the zone with shit'. It's all appalling, but one of the many appalling things about it is the GOP is not even bothering to push back much against the Jan 6 commission, reckoning that their voters don't really give a shit about it, and they'll coast into power in November on the back of the parlous economic situation and dismantle and bury the whole show. Which they might.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    Which they might.Wayfarer

    Depends whether AG Garland prosecutes Trump. He must.
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    One difference with Watergate is that at least some congressmen and senators on the same side as Nixon decided that the principle of fairness was more important than party.schopenhauer1

    Just saw the excellent dramatisation of Watergate, 'Gaslit'. Recommend it. The GOP of the day still had some principles, they hadn't all sold their soul for power.
  • hypericin
    513
    I think the vital question now is, why is the Democratic party so utterly impotent in the face of the outrageous criminality of the Republicans? In a functioning political system, the Republican party would have been destroyed forever a long time ago.

    Was this what it was like in Weimar Germany? What is history's conclusion as to the reason for *their* impotence?
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k
    It's not the same old theme...creativesoul

    Why? Unless Trump's indicted with something that puts him in jail or prevents him from running, the same electorate that supports him won't care. The Republican Party benefits and some are complicit as long as it keeps them in power. No "shocking" revelation will then make them shake their heads and say, "no more". That would mean they had integrity. Party and power above all else.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k
    The GOP of the day still had some principles, they hadn't all sold their soul for power.Wayfarer

    And there's the difference.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k
    I think the vital question now is, why is the Democratic party so utterly impotent in the face of the outrageous criminality of the Republicans? In a functioning political system, the Republican party would have been destroyed forever a long time ago.hypericin

    Filibuster. You need 60% not 51% to do anything at all.
  • Outlander
    1.5k
    Potentially. Same can be said about any party of majority.

    The idea of the Constitution as a "living document" that can be readily changed/updated/redacted through civil process basically throws out the idea of a "destruction" of the foundation of a construct short of violent action against an individual or group of individuals who hold opposing views (terrorism).

    Sure that means, if enough of the wrong people gain power, slavery could become legal again. I would virtually guarantee this as impossible. Not for long, that is.
  • Hanover
    8.3k
    Demographically, it's a dying party, and this is the death throws perhaps..schopenhauer1

    Bold predictions. I'm predicting the Dems take a beating in the mid-terms and a Republican wins the next Presidency.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.1k

    No, I agree with you.. This will happen in the short term. I am talking long term.. ten years or more.. Demographics just aren't in their favor.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    I think the vital question now is, why is the Democratic party so utterly impotent in the face of the outrageous criminality of the Republicans? In a functioning political system, the Republican party would have been destroyed forever a long time ago.hypericin

    Agree. Biden talks more about Ukraine than his own country.
  • Agent Smith
    5.2k
    It would depend on which party (democrats/republicans) was at the helm when America was either attacked or was the attacker; the US has seen plenty of wars (Vietnam, 9/11, etc.).

    Another metric would be the condition of the US economy: Boom-bust cycles, who was in charge?).

    A very simple way of determining which party is bad for America and the world; perhaps too simplistic some might comment, but hey, it's a start!
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    think the vital question now is, why is the Democratic party so utterly impotent in the face of the outrageous criminality of the Republicans?hypericin

    It can’t be laid at their feet. Who acquitted Trump twice already? Who are propagating Trump’s lies throughout the electorate and media? The Republicans are signing on to all manner of nonsense conspiracy theories. The Democrats are doing everything they can but the situation is diabolical.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    The Democrats are doing everything they can but the situation is diabolical.Wayfarer

    Adam Schiff has said the DOJ should have been doing their own investigation. Trump should have been indicted by now.
  • hypericin
    513
    The Democrats are doing everything they canWayfarer

    The fact that Trump he is STILL not indicted, the fact that Garland might refuse to prosecute, the fact that this obvious traitor might well run again, and WIN, speaks volumes otherwise.
  • Jackson
    1.6k
    The fact that Trump he is STILL not indicted, the fact that Garland might refuse to prosecute, the fact that this obvious traitor might well run again, and WIN, speaks volumes otherwise.hypericin

    Agree.
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    When you have one side operating outside the law, while the opposing party is constrained to act within it, then the opposing party’s ability to prosecute is severely curtailed. I too am very disappointed by the apparent lack of action on the DOJ’s part, but It’s not simply weakness on the Democrat side - they’re up against an extra-legal power that has enormous influence over the media and public opinion. (I say extra-legal, because it’s obvious that a significant proportion of the US populace really does believe that Trump is above the law. In effect, Trump has convinced a large section of the electorate that the truth is what he says it is - which amounts to the same.)

    Think back to the Mueller Report. Mueller has been castigated for his perceived weakness, but what he actually said, or strongly implied, was that there were grounds for impeachment, but that Congress needed to make that determination. And how did that play out?

    We have a coterie of people in positions of power in Government, who’ve already shown time and time again that they will acquit Trump, no matter the charges, no matter the evidence. If it were the Republican Party of 1970 then it’s quite feasible Trump would have been impeached, expelled and disgraced after the Mueller report, but that didn’t happen. I remember it being said at the time of the first impeachment, if you’re going to go after the King, you have to make sure the blow is fatal. It wasn’t, and it could easily happen all over again. So, no, I don’t hold the Democrats responsible for this situation, the fault is wholly and solely with the Republican Party, aided and abetted by Rupert Murdoch.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Those who do not recognize democrats as Trump enablers, are themselves, Trump enablers. Trump supporters, twice removed.
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    So, in short, imagine if there was a jury trial of Trump, for conspiracy or secession or some other charge, and for some reason, he was acquitted (again) or found not guilty on a technicality, or whatever. You can bet that the Trump enablers and the GOP would forever use this to declare Trump innocent of trying to steal the election, despite all the facts, all the evidence. Because, remember, in Trump World, the facts don't count.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It's so insane to me that people think Trump - or Trumpism more widely - will be defeated in courts, hearings, reports, and the like.

    Trumpism will be defeated in places where people eat, sleep, work, and play. But because the difference regarding policy between the democrats and republicans in these spheres in exactly zero, people think Trump will be defeated in small rooms where a tiny coterie of well connected and excessively rich people will dispense democracy from on high. These being the only places where the pseudo-opposition to Trump can play out for the sake of spectacle to pretend to be doing anything. It's idiotic and a begging for fascism.

    If your political focus is on 'trials' and 'hearings' and other small-room round-tables, you're part of the problem. You are the problem to which a Trump is the logical solution. People like @Wayfarer are complict in Trumpism from top to bottom.
  • ssu
    5.9k
    Why is the GOP clinging so hard with so much nearly religious devotion to such an inept politician as Trump is beyond me. It doesn't make any sense.

    Never mind if there is overreaction against him. The fact is that he is an extremely lousy leader.

    It's clearly that the party has lost it's way.

    Agree. Biden talks more about Ukraine than his own country.Jackson
    Even the idea of this is pretty bad for Biden. There's likely a recession coming and the US vote on their leaders above all on the economic performance of the country.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    74 million Americans voted for Trump. Trump is enormously representative of American values, ideals, and aspirations. Unlike the liberal condescension that these people 'lost their way', it is far more productive to ask why these people found a way in Trump, and what kind of rot - deep in the heart of American institutions and life - made Trump a palatable option. Any honest analysis of that rot will find a toxic sludge built right into the democratic party, the supreme court, American media - all of it. The effort to isolate and sequester Trump and the Republican party as some minor blemish on an otherwise perfectly fine body politic is utterly insane.

    If 74 million Americans voted for Trump and you are stupid enough to respond 'OMG the GOP lost its way' then you are the idiot, and the reason why the GOP will continue to win.

    It's been 6 years since Trump was elected. If you still can't "make sense" of why the GOP backs him after 6 years - when 74 million people can - then you, specifically you, are stupider than every Trump voter in existence.
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    So I take it that you think the solution to the political problem posed by Trump is outside of politics. Do you think there is any solution possible?
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    So I take it that you think the solution to the political problem posed by Trump is outside of politics.Wayfarer

    "Outside of politics"? Not in the slightest. Outside of the narrow, poverty-stricken and anmeic idea of what you think 'politics' consists in, absolutely. Politics consists in people being able to pay their rent - or alliteratively live in their own houses - in being able to feed their babies, in children not shooting other children in the face while in school, in not being subject to ruinous, car and mall-centric city planning, in not having the children who survive school not getting murdered overseas for American imperial ambitions. Literally all of the things that both the democrats and the republicans couldn't give a shit about actively work against, and all of which feed directly into people like Trump. Trump is not a political problem. Trump is a political solution.

    But yeah, let's focus on 'reports' and 'hearings' and 'insurrections' and things that are irrelevant to anyone's day-to-day because politics is a fucking Hollywood movie with set-pieces made for the liberal commentariat to oogle over. If your idea of 'politics' is 'what happens in small rooms where people talk for a bit then sign a piece of paper' then you do not have an idea of politics.
  • Wayfarer
    16.1k
    So is there anything short of total revolution that will address the problem? I mean, what would a solution consist of? Do you think if the current order completely broke down and anarchy prevailed, it would make it easier for those suffering masses to pay their rent and get along?
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