• Streetlight
    9.1k
    So is there anything short of total revolution that will address the problem? I mean, what would a solution consist of? Do you think if the current order completely broke down and anarchy prevailed, it would make it easier for those suffering masses to pay their rent and get along?Wayfarer

    What a stupid, inane response. I argued that one should focus on people's living conditions rather than the spectacle of what happens in little rooms and you think this amounts to a choice between the status quo and 'order completely breaking down and anarchy prevailing'? What the hell is wrong with you?
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    If you can possibly focus on the issue rather than adopting your usual pose of juvenile hysteria, what I’m asking is, is there a political solution to the problem? Granted the role of politics is to serve the interests of the populace - to focus on the living conditions of the electorate - then what political party or movement or ideology offers a solution to what you see as the problem? As you say the Democrats are complicit in Trump’s corruption, then what has to happen to provide an alternative solution?
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Abolishing capitalism would be good, but in lieu of that, get money of out politics, abolish the Electoral Collage, pack or abolish the Supreme Court, rewrite that stupid piece of shit document they call a constitution, bring back the corporate income tax rate of the 1940-1950s, massively limit speculation on housing, massively raise the capital gains tax, establish a decent fucking healthcare system, fund the ever living daylights out of public housing, gut to the point of death funding for the military and for cops, so and and so on.

    All the things that the democrats and republicans are united on opposing. Biden, that war criminal piece of shit corporate fuck with an approval rating lower than Trump's, is, as it stands, a red carpet to Trump, and refusal to criticize him to the point of his near-death makes one the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

    The Biggest Clear and Present Danger To The United States of America is the Current Composition of The United States of America.
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    thanks! Helps me to understand where you’re coming from.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    Abolishing capitalism would be good, but in lieu of that, get money of out politics, abolish the Electoral Collage, pack or abolish the Supreme Court, rewrite that stupid piece of shit document they call a constitution, bring back the corporate income tax rate of the 1940-1950s, massively limit speculation on housing, massive raise the capital gains tax, establish a decent fucking healthcare system, fund the ever living daylights out of public housing, gut to the point of death funding for the military and for cops, so and and so onStreetlight

    Are you, like me, a socialist? In your case a very angry socialist.


    I have a few American friends who make statements like 'the civil war has never really ended' and 'the rule of 'survival of the fittest,' guides 'the American dream.' Do you agree with such statements?

    America is such a melting pot of cultures that it represents an attempt at a human society which imo regularly demonstrates what does and does not work.
    Individual freedom, YES, but how do you ensure your personal freedom does not infringe the freedom of others.
    Xenophobia/cultural or traditional preference. If some people living nearby look different from you and act differently from you then what has to be done so that we can celebrate/enjoy/learn from that variety rather than war with it.
    'Power corrupts!!!' There must be a way to stop nefarious individuals from reaching positions of power and influence or at least there must be checks and balances which can activate to remove them.

    Every person must do what they can to help!
    No social/political system has been created yet which is benevolent to the vast majority of the people it represents. We can keep trying or we can surrender to the hilarious antinatalists!
    I agree with Steven Pinker when he points out the improvements we have made.
    We don't live under such vile systems as in ancient Greece, Rome or Egypt.
    We fought world wars against imperialism and fascism.
    The internet offers ways to grow movements from ground swells up to global sizes very quickly.
    This can amplify evil as well as good movements, so pick your team and let's get on with it!
    In history, ALL TYRANTS and all tyrannical systems fall, eventually, WITHOUT EXCEPTION! they fall.
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    I have a few American friends who make statements like 'the civil war has never really ended' and 'the rule of 'survival of the fittest,' guides 'the American dream.' Do you agree with such statements?universeness

    Not an argument I’d want to entertain. I still hold out hope that sanity will prevail and that not all Republicans are delusional and mendacious.The big problem in America is ‘empowered stupidity’ - for various reasons stupid people have far too much influence in the US. The Australian electorate on the whole is much more sane.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Are you, like me, a socialist?universeness

    Hmm, was it something I said? :sweat:

    It's just very tiring to have a rising tide of fascism and the response of liberals is 'we need a more robust set of committee hearings'.

    Or, as it turns out, this elitist, bourgeois crap about 'stupid people', that @Wayfarer just posted.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    Not an argument I’d want to entertain.Wayfarer

    Is that just for fear of the real possibilities involved? Many Americans have already declared themselves 'hostile,' which won't go away. Evil thrives more when good people do nothing.

    for various reasons stupid people have far too much influence in the US.Wayfarer

    I think you are underestimating truly nefarious people by giving them an 'excuse' card labeled, 'sorry I am stupid.' I am willing to forgive the followers of the nefarious but not the leaders or their main power brokers.

    Do you believe that the human race is capable of creating a social/political system that is benevolent to the vast majority of people it represents and can maintain and preserve the ecology it exists within?
  • Wayfarer
    16.3k
    Do you believe that the human race is capable of creating a social/political system that is benevolent to the vast majority of people it represents and can maintain and preserve the ecology it exists within?universeness

    I hope that democratic systems of government can aspire to that. I don't know what the alternatives are.

    As regards the civil war - it's astonishing, and saddening, that it even occurred. America seems to have kind of streak of violence deeply embedded in it. As for 'survival of the fittest' America's capitalist laissez faire culture certainly seems to encourage that. I've sometimes wondered if the idea of the 'pursuit of happiness' has some share of responsibility for that as it's a very individualistic aim - the idea of the 'commonwealth' never seems to have taken root there.

    I don't think stupidity is an excuse for anything, especially the kind of wilful stupidity exhibited by many politicians.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    It's just very tiring to have a rising tide of fascism and the response of liberals is 'we need a more robust set of committee hearings'.

    Or, as it turns out, this elitist, bourgeois crap about 'stupid people', that Wayfarer just posted.
    Streetlight

    I think you, me and @Wayfarer have more in common than we have in conflict.
    The French under Mélenchon has demonstrated how to unite against an impotent centre and a nefarious consolidating, extreme, right.
    All past revolutions have been started by humans/humanists/socialists who feel revulsion about what is happening to a majority exploited by a nefarious FEW. History shows that the FEW are destroyed by the 'had enough' MANY. Those good people who 'revolted' are then usually usurped by a nefarious few from their own ranks who replace the few who were just 'overthrown. Books like 'Animal Farm,' etc have dramatised this so well.
    True socialist leaders are always the first to die in such circumstances. This is what must be 'studied' ad nauseum. New powerful checks and balances MUST accompany any new move towards major change.
    Do you think humans could achieve such?
    How about the military? It must be possible to keep access to the military outwith the reach of any one person or group who are/become nefarious.
  • Tzeentch
    1.7k
    Abolishing capitalism would be good, ...Streetlight

    ... get money of out politics, ...Streetlight

    This would be a funny joke if I didn't know you were being serious.

    Taking away economic power from private individuals and putting it in the hands of government gets "money out of politcs" how?


    ... rewrite that stupid piece of shit document they call a constitution, ...Streetlight

    And who is going to do that? The politicians that have created this mess? Intellectuals that you happen to like? You, yourself?


    Moving on...

    ... establish a decent fucking healthcare system, ...Streetlight

    ... fund the ever living daylights out of public housing, ....Streetlight

    Swell. How are you going to pay for that?

    ... bring back the corporate income tax rate of the 1940-1950s, ...Streetlight

    ... massively raise the capital gains tax, ...Streetlight

    ... gut to the point of death funding for the military and for cops, ...Streetlight

    By ruining the country economically, politically and socially, apparently. Interesting approach to fixing things.


    All the things that the democrats and republicans are united on opposing.Streetlight

    Gee, I wonder why.


    ... so and and so on.Streetlight

    I don't even want to know what else you would add to this blueprint of wholescale destruction.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    I don't even want to know what else you would add to this blueprint of wholescale destruction.Tzeentch

    More destruction obviously. If there is something on my impromptu list that is not utterly destructive of the US as it currently stands, I'm not doing it right.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    I hope that democratic systems of government can aspire to that. I don't know what the alternatives areWayfarer

    So, I assume then that you support democratic systems, as do I and I think @Streetlight does to.
    Is this an example of that 'common ground' I was talking about.
    Has the election of Albanese in Australia been a positive for you?

    As regards the civil war - it's astonishing, and saddening, that it even occurred. America seems to have kind of streak of violence deeply embedded in it.Wayfarer

    I am currently reading the memoirs of U. S. Grant. I think the politics and culture/traditions of the South were based on the old European aristocratic/imperialist systems, whereas the culture/traditions of the North, were based more on the aspirations of the old European 'poor and hungry masses.' I know most Historians could shoot many well-deserved holes in that viewpoint and that the truth is far more nuanced but I think it's also, basically, correct. There was too much 'male chest-thumping,' for the civil war to be avoided.
    Look at how 'loyal,' past Australians have been to 'the British.'
    Even the fact that Oz was used as a dumping ground for those that the ruling brit morons considered undesirable/criminal and the use of the Anzacs as 'fodder' in WW1, etc has not compelled Australians to reject the British monarchy. That's how deep the shit of the nefarious can penetrate.

    I've sometimes wondered if the 'pursuit of happiness' has some share of responsibility for that as it's a very individualistic aimWayfarer

    You make a very important point! Especially when the pursuit you mention, is common to a person from Australia, Scotland, USA, Russia, Ukraine or anywhereland.
    We all know is a globally common goal but YES the devil lies in the detail.
    It's the same as individual freedom! One person's meat is another's poison.
    Those who wish to live apart/separate/rarely or never contact each other must be able to do so, to avoid conflict.
    We need more space and resources to achieve that.
    I can only suggest a future solution.
    The Universe is vast. We need to move into it. Move off planet!
    Part of the reasons I support Scottish independence is that perhaps its easier to unite with others when you are more secure about your own identity.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    Taking away economic power from private individuals and putting it in the hands of government gets "money out of politcs" how?Tzeentch

    Do you agree that the concept of 'currency' is changing?
    The total in your bank account is a number that goes down over the month then it gets replenished, if your circumstances allow for such. Paper/metal money is on the wane.
    In what ways might this cause change as we move forward?
    What do you think of efforts towards a UBI(Universal Basic Income)?
    Are you content that your life is so influenced by the amount of money you have access to?
    If you don't like the money system? Can you not envisage a different/better/more benevolent system for humans to exist under?
  • Isaac
    8k
    It's utterly astonishing that as soon as less than 100% support for the Democrats is raised, the alternatives are assumed to be some kind of bloody revolution. I mean, I'm as up for a bloody revolution as the next man, but is that really the limit of these people's imagination?
  • Tzeentch
    1.7k
    Do you agree that the concept of 'currency' is changing?
    The total in your bank account is a number that goes down over the month then it gets replenished, if your circumstances allow for such. Paper/metal money is on the wane.
    universeness

    Paper "money" and metal money are markedly different.

    Paper "money" is not real money, but currency. It's a means of exchanging value.

    Real money is also a means of exchanging value, but has as one of its key characteristics that it is scarce and difficult to produce. Coins, gold bars, other precious metals, etc.

    Paper currency does not check this last box. It is very easy to produce, and so it has been in copious amounts by the Federal Reserve. (see the discussion on inflation)

    Since the letting go of the gold standard there's no money underpinning the value of our currency anymore and that has been cause for worry for a long time. The value of our currency is now completely a matter of trust in the institutions of government.

    So to answer your question: the concept of currency isn't changing, but currency has taken a different (in my opinion very questionable) role in our economic systems.

    Secondly, paper currency might be on the wane, being replaced by digital currency, but both are valueless and problematic in their current role - it doesn't make much difference whether your currency is paper or digital.

    Real money on the other hand is not on the wane. In fact, the value of gold has been on the rise for a long time, peaking during times of economic crisis.

    In what ways might this cause change as we move forward?universeness

    Our current system is based on whether the public believes in fairy tales, and people are starting to wisen up. Once faith in governmental institutions erodes sufficiently (a process which I think is already started) people will go back to real money. After all, everyone is free to buy gold in order to safeguard their wealth.

    What do you think of efforts towards a UBI(Universal Basic Income)?universeness

    I think it's a Trojan horse.

    Are you content that your life is so influenced by the amount of money you have access to?universeness

    The things that matter in life can't be bought with money. As long as I have food on my plate and a roof above my head I'm as content as material wealth will make me.

    Can you not envisage a different/better/more benevolent system for humans to exist under?universeness

    I could certainly try, but such visions of a better world must always be nuanced by an understanding of the flawed human nature.
  • NOS4A2
    6k
    They hired a big producer from ABC and aimed to show it all on prime time. It’s an obvious show trial and campaign ad for establishment candidates.

    Never forget that their security executed an unarmed veteran. This sort of propaganda only justifies their evil.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It's utterly astonishing that as soon as less than 100% support for the Democrats is raised, the alternatives are assumed to be some kind of bloody revolution. I mean, I'm as up for a bloody revolution as the next man, but is that really the limit of these people's imagination?Isaac

    Yes.
  • ArielAssante
    59
    People want to believe there is a system which will allow them to feel secure. They believe gathering together in groups, organizations supporting particular ideologies is the way to create such a system.

    Can anyone point to any system in the history of mankind which achieved this?
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    It's an existential problem, not political. Arguing about which party should have power is looking to the window dressing for what is essential. It is being born at all, of course, which is the problem. Until you solve the problem of survival, and how our own demands create self-perpetuated work for each other, this is just hobby-horse bullshit. All of politics is this when compared to the existential problem of subsisting itself, and the social-milieu that is created from our own demands on each other. Just bringing the philosophy back folks...
  • Mr Bee
    463
    It's been 6 years since Trump was elected. If you still can't "make sense" of why the GOP backs him after 6 years - when 74 million people can - then you, specifically you, are stupider than every Trump voter in existence.Streetlight

    It's not that the Democrats in power can't make sense of the reason why Trump came into power, it's that they don't like the implications of the answer. Better to think that they're not the problem and that they don't need to change then to go through the trouble of stirring up the status quo.
  • Mr Bee
    463
    Filibuster. You need 60% not 51% to do anything at all.schopenhauer1

    The Dems can get rid of the filibuster on a party line basis, but the senators from Arizona and West Virginia thought it more important that congress remain an impotent body.

    And before anyone says that this will give Republicans free rein to pass whatever aspects of their agenda they want when they get into power, then I very much welcome them to try and do so and face the political consequences. Better for them to try to gut abortion access in the public eye than to try and play backroom games with the SCOTUS.
  • universeness
    2.3k

    All your descriptions of 'currency' and the associated value placed on metals like silver and gold etc are mere human inventions. Humans can therefore manipulate such systems in any way they choose.
    Consensus to make such changes is what is required.

    I don't see how regression back to what you call 'real money' or 'rare commodities,' such as gold would help change the importance of money to the human condition.
    Any 'financial crisis,' is mainly caused by abuse of power and/or money systems, it is not down to resources magically disappearing from the Earth

    What do you think of efforts towards a UBI(Universal Basic Income)?
    — universeness

    I think it's a Trojan horse.
    Tzeentch

    Who or what do you think is hiding inside your trojan horse?

    The things that matter in life can't be bought with money. As long as I have food on my plate and a roof above my head I'm as content as material wealth will make me.Tzeentch

    Do you think that what you describe above should be an ENTITLEMENT for all humans born into a human community or do you think that they must be able to afford it?

    I could certainly try, but such visions of a better world must always be nuanced by an understanding of the flawed human nature.Tzeentch

    Sounds like we have some common ground here but I am not fatigued by the thought of facing 'flawed human nature,' as I think the nefarious and the narcissistic do not see themselves as flawed.
    The nefarious few want power and control over the many or they place their personal will and significance above that of others. This is not a flaw, their machine works fine, its intentions are very deliberate.
  • schopenhauer1
    7.3k
    The Dems can get rid of the filibuster on a party line basis, but the senators from Arizona and West Virginia thought it more important that congress remain an impotent body.Mr Bee

    Indeed, Manchin is pretty much a Republican. That’s well known. Its West Virginia. Not sure what Sinemas deal is either but Arizona is not known as a bastion for liberal politics either. Mainly libertarian republicans.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    It's utterly astonishing that as soon as less than 100% support for the Democrats is raised, the alternatives are assumed to be some kind of bloody revolution.Isaac

    I support democracy but I don't advocate for bloody revolution.
    I advocate for defense rather than attack but I also advocate for change through the democratic process.
  • universeness
    2.3k
    It is being born at all, of course, which is the problem.schopenhauer1
    Well, You're here now! You might as well help try to improve things for others whilst recommending that life should fade away asap.
    You can advocate for antinatalism all you want, but meantime, you can do your best to help those who are suffering.
  • Mr Bee
    463
    Indeed, Manchin is pretty much a Republican. That’s well known. Its West Virginia. Not sure what Sinemas deal is either but Arizona is not known as a bastion for liberal politics either. Mainly libertarian republicans.schopenhauer1

    To be fair, Manchin at the very least supported reversing the Trump tax cuts (or at least that was his public statement). Sinema opposed those same tax cuts back in 2017 but then reversed course suddenly without explaining why. I mean, I think we can probably all guess as to why, but it is quite baffling.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    It's not that the Democrats in power can't make sense of the reason why Trump came into power, it's that they don't like the implications of the answer. Better to think that they're not the problem and that they don't need to change then to go through the trouble of stirring up the status quo.Mr Bee

    To be fair to the Democrats, I was referring to this bloke:

    Why is the GOP clinging so hard with so much nearly religious devotion to such an inept politician as Trump is beyond me. It doesn't make any sense.ssu

    But yes, the Democrats are Trump enablers. They have been ever since Hillary Clinton's brilliant campaign strategy to elevate Trump in during the Republican primaries, and they have been ever since. Or maybe it was since Trump was a registered Democrat back in 2001. Of course it doesn't really matter because the two parties are the same party with differing heraldry.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    Of course it doesn't really matter because the two parties are the same party with differing heraldry.Streetlight

    Democrats impeached Trump twice. How are they the same party?
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Democrats impeached Trump twice.Jackson

    Oh what's that? They said 'boo' very loudly twice?

    If they keep going, they'll get to do it a third time. A fourth even. What fun they'll have.
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