BTW, here's a cool take on Slayer: — Arcane Sandwich

And here's the song that they're talking about (kick-ass song BTW)

Type O Negative is awesome. They're Toxic Chads. Only Toxic Virgins hate them (as in, metalheads in general).

[

I dunno nothin about metal, but even country folk hate country:

Nice! Are you familiar with the work of Coven? Their album "Witchcraft Destroys Minds and Reaps Souls" is in the same league as the stuf by Big Brother and the Holding Company. In fact, Coven is arguably the first Heavy Metal band, since their album was published before Black Sabbath's. They even have a song called "Black Sabbath", and that was before the band Black Sabbath even had that name! And one of their members is called Oz Osborne! Not to be confused with Ozzy Osbourne!

Coven is the best kept secret in the world of Heavy Metal, just as Los Saicos from Peru is the best kept secret in the world of Punk Rock.

That's surprisingly musical. My ignorance of the genre is profound but listening to that dragged this from memory vault of forbidden youth.



Oh and speaking of well kept secrets this was in the dark recesses of the record collection back then:

Nice! Now we're talking. Are you familiar with Pentangle? Best Hippie Rock band to ever exist.

Black Sabbath - Black sabbath
The Number of the Beast - Iron Maiden (I know SOASS is commonly ranked higher, it is the many memories)
Don't Break the Oath - Merciful Fate
Rust in Peace - Megadeth
Master of Puppets - Metallica

:up:

Merciful Fate is wicked.

Big calls. Best rather than greatest?

1. Tool - Lateralus;
2. Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane;
3. Faith No More - Angel Dust (if it counts, if not, shift everything up one)
4. Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger (or Louder Than Love if BMF isn't 'metal' enough);
5. Fantomas - The Director's Cut
5b. any of: Master of Puppets, Sad Wings.., Paranoid,

Tool fans are toxic virgins. — Arcane Sandwich

You really wanna go down this type of road on a philosophy forum? Hehehe.

Best rather than greatest? — AmadeusD

Same difference, I would say.
Source: I'm a philosopher, Trust Me Bro.

Faith No More and Fantomas, but no Mr. Bungle? What would Mike Patton say? : D

Tool fans are toxic virgins. — Arcane Sandwich

You really wanna go down this type of road on a philosophy forum? Hehehe. — AmadeusD

Hey, hey! I'm a Tool Fan as well! Come on, man. Let's be real. The Tool fandom is toxic, and the mentality of the Tool fandom is a virgin mentality. Like, guys and gals that overthink things, they get in their own way, they're trapped in their own minds, yadda yadda. Like, let's just assume it, and get on with it. We listen to healthy music, in addition to Tool. Right? Country music can be classified as healthy music, right? And, we also listen to Chad mentality music. I mean, within reason, of course. I don't listen to Mötley Crüe, for example, I don't listen to garbage. It's just musical garbage, there's no other way to describe it (other than "Toxic Chad"). As for Chad music, I like Hatebreed for example, and they're arguably Healthy Chad instead of Toxic Chad, right? Like, there's a positive message to their songs, they're uplifting (the technical term is "posi-violence", a portmanteau of "positive violence". It's like Positive Hardcore, sort of. Minus the violence, I guess).

But I mean, it's kinda like, Tool fans are sort of pretentious, right? And I for one don't like to just blurt out something like "What about Heavy Metal?" because that's just Whataboutism. Like, it's apples and oranges. Yes, metalheads are indeed pretentious, and yes, Tool fans are indeed pretentious. But not in the same way! Lol : D

Same difference, I would say.
Source: I'm a philosopher, Trust Me Bro. — Arcane Sandwich

LMAO - fair enough.

no Mr. Bungle? What would Mike Patton say? : D — Arcane Sandwich

I guess I don't really see Bungle as metal beyond the Easter Bunny EP(both versions). Try not to shoot me :P

Ironically, my current favourite project of his is French pop music (though, his vocals and lyrics are on-brand lol).

The Tool fandom is toxic, and the mentality of the Tool fandom is a virgin mentality. — Arcane Sandwich

Eh. I disagree. There's a coterie of mentally ill people in most fandoms. I think it's insular, and that gives an air of superiority but most Tool fans i've encountered aren't exemplary of these stereotypes... Then again, Maynard hates his fans so maybe you're right lol.

I guess I don't really see Bungle as metal beyond the Easter Bunny EP(both versions). Try not to shoot me :P — AmadeusD

No, I'm super inclusive in that sense, I mean I started this thread by saying that Earth Crisis occupies the first three spots, I mean, it's a free-for-all at this stage of the game. Like, you could probably say something crazy like Michael Jackson is the best Heavy Metal artist, and I would probably believe you. I wouldn't agree with you, but it's like, you have the basic human right to have mistaken beliefs, just as much as anyone and everyone does.

French pop music — AmadeusD

Oh man, I hate that stuff. I hate French pop. It's an abomination. Like, it's just too much. You have to draw the line somewhere, even if it's Mike Patton that we're talking about here.

but most Tool fans i've encountered aren't exemplary of these stereotypes... Then again, Maynard hates his fans so maybe you're right lol. — AmadeusD

That's what I'm saying. Maynard is a "philosophical schizophrenic". He likes double meanings in songs. What is the song "Stinkfist" even talking about? Well, it has an obvious double meaning. And that double meaning is usually lost on the Tool fandom, it flies right over their heads, r/whoosh and all of that stupid stuff. That's why Maynard hates them. And you know what? He does have a point. A rather good point. So, by that point, I just stop listening to Tool, because if double meanings and Fibonacci sequences are all that I can get out of it, then, it's like, it's a mediocre band, objectively speaking. And if Maynard disagrees, then, well, go take a fucking anchor up your ass, know what I'm saying? Your band sucks, Primus already did what you guys are trying to do.

Phew...

Nothing personal though, all good, brah.

h man, I hate that stuff. I hate French pop. It's an abomination. Like, it's just too much. You have to draw the line somewhere, even if it's Mike Patton that we're talking about here. — Arcane Sandwich

The album is called Corpse Flower if that helps :P

I just stop listening to Tool, because if double meanings and Fibonacci sequences are all that I can get out of it, then, it's like, it's a mediocre band, objectively speaking. And if Maynard disagrees, then, well, go take a fucking anchor up your ass, know what I'm saying? You band sucks, Primus already did what you guys are trying to do. — Arcane Sandwich

Fair enough - I cannot recognize anything in here. Those two bands are very, very different for example. THey do very different things, and ahve had wildly divergent lives.

What I get out of Tool is the music. I listen to Tool like any other band (though, they aren't my favourite by a long shot). I enjoy their music at a very, very high level (and as a drummer, I am bound to continually exalt Daniel Carrington).

What I get out of Tool is the music. I listen to Tool like any other band (though, they aren't my favourite by a long shot). I enjoy their music at a very, very high level (and as a drummer, I am bound to continually exalt Daniel Carrington). — AmadeusD

Come on man. Mike Portnoy is a million times better than Daniel Carrington. If it's high level that you want, then we should all just listen to Dream Theater. And if that's the argument, then we should all just listen to Dragonforce. And Dragonforce is awful!

Oh, come now. You know that isn't true. Portnoy is an incredible drummer though, no doubt. But Carington is just... there's a reason he's the choice for all the old heads who need a Pat Masteloto/Ian Paice/John Bonham replacement :P

That's not the argument though - it was an additional reason I am a Tool enjoyer LOL. Nothing Portnoy has ever done sounds as good to me as any number of Carrington performances. That's another discussion, though, I'm sure (but i'm up for it lololol). According to Portnoy, Dance fo Eternity is his most technical piece and was written to be expressly that - it's not as technical as several Tool tracks.

Dragonforce really is awful. But their drummer isn't top tier either.

Dragonforce is a real head-scratcher for me at the end of the day. I mean, on the face of it, their idea makes sense, right?

1) Heavy Metal is more technical than Rock and Roll.
2) Power Metal is the most technical subgenre in Heavy Metal.
3) So, let's make the most technical band in the Power Metal subgenre.

But it just leads to something that, when you look at it from a philosophical standpoint (as in, Aesthetics, or Philosophy of Art), it's just conceptually meaningless. I mean, what's the actual message of the band? What are the artists "trying to say" to their audience? What do they want to "express"?

And the answer is something along the following lines: "Look, we're just the best musicians on the Planet, that's a fact, take it or leave it."

And I'm not sure that I agree with such a philosophically loaded statement. Tool is better than Dragonforce, and that's a fact. Of course, the easy objection here to what I just said is that "Bro Maybe Tool Is Not A Metal Band".

And my reply to that would be: Fuck off. Earth Crisis is Heavy Metal, Amebix is Heavy Metal, so Tool is Heavy Metal.

So, back to the problem with Dragonforce. They're not the best musicians on the Planet. I don't buy that for a second. Well, maybe for a literal second I can somehow believe it, but no more than that. A classically trained professional Pianist, that plays at Madison Square Garden, is a million, trillion, zillionth times better Musician, better Performer, better Artist, better Human Being Simpliciter, than any of the members in Dragonforce.

Power Metal is the most technical subgenre in Heavy Metal. — Arcane Sandwich

I think the correct genre is 'Animals as Leaders' hehehe.

Not sure what the rant about Dragonforce is for haha. I said they were awful.

I think Dream Theater are the absolute epitome of tasteless wankery. And I still enjoy a handful of their tracks. So there you go lol.

I think Dream Theater are the absolute epitome of tasteless wankery. — AmadeusD

Damn, that's a metal thing to say. Tasteless wankery? Dream Theater? Well that applies to all of Heavy Metal, now doesn't it? What is Black Sabbath if not tasteless wankery? If that's what you want to discuss, what's the alternative? Hippie music? Like, maybe in the 60's and the 70's that was cool, but if you were a teenager in the 80's or the 90's or the early 00's? Those decades have no representative hippie rock bands. There's heavy metal, there's hip hop (rap, specifically), there's hardcore punk rock, there's gothic rock, there's darkwave, there's Krautrock, there's noise rock, I mean the list just goes on and on. And I listen to a lot of that stuff myself, but and the end of the day I'm just a metalhead with a bit of hardcore punk, that's basically it. That's why we were all so stupid to buy into Metallica in the first place, and into Thrash Metal more generally.

So, back to Dream Theater. I can see what you're saying, but I don't know if they're the epitome of tasteless wankery. I think they're somewhere in the middle. I think that Dragonforce is the epitome of tasteless wankery. They're better musicians than Dream Theater, and they're a better Heavy Metal band. Power Metal is more metal than Progressive Metal. I'm telling you, Dragonforce has it all figured out, that's why one of their songs is in the Guitar Hero video game. Dragonforce was specifically braincrafted ("engineered") to be the Be-All, End-All Power Metal Band. Like, I'm sure that they literally believe that they are the best Heavy Metal musicians in the scene, if not the best musicians in pop music today.

And all I'm saying is that they're wrong. What they do, from a conceptual, lyrical, and instrumental standpoint, is the epitome of tasteless wankery tout court.

Suffice to say I don't agree with much of that :) Glad we're at least in the same areas of taste though

Suffice to say I don't agree with much of that :) — AmadeusD

Feel free to disagree. See?
It even rhymes. It's a cool thing to say. And, I actually believe in it.

Glad we're at least in the same areas of taste though — AmadeusD

People that listen to Heavy Metal have the best taste in the world of Rock and Roll in general.

Are you familiar with Pentangle? Best Hippie Rock band to ever exist. — Arcane Sandwich

Well now you are in my happy hunting ground - folk and folk rock. So i can correct you here; the best band ever was the Albion Band.





And in case you like hard core folk:— I used to play some of these tunes on mandolin, a long time ago, in another part of the forest.

Are you familiar with the work of Panopticon? It's RABM Metal from Kentucky (Red and Black Metal, as in, Left and Anarchist Black Metal). They did a cover of the labor song "Come All Ye Coal Miners":

I really enjoyed their interview.

For myself I know that I like Type O for the many reasons people like bands -- found them in my teens and they spoke to me -- but I'm glad to see others getting a kick out of them.

Thinking of them as Toxic Chads vs. Tool as Toxic Virgins gives me a good feel for the Chad-Virgin spectrum.

They're both definitely toxic, at least :D -- part of their attraction is that they express toxic beliefs.

What I like about Type O Negative in particular is that they like double meanings, like Tool, but most of the time they're just making puns as a way of expressing self-denigration -- a lot of the times the puns are offensive and clever, much like "Cast that spell on me -- boo-bitch craft"

The interview captured a lot of what I like about Type O musically, tho. Peter Steele did legit sound and look like a sexy depressed vampire :D

The interview captured a lot of what I like about Type O musically, tho. Peter Steele did legit sound and look like a sexy depressed vampire :D — Moliere

Not only that, he also posed nude for PlayGirl Magazine. How is that not Chad? Gothic Metal is really just about sex at the end of the day. The vampire thing is an excuse to get laid. Can't say that I fault him. It's quite clever, actually.

Do you know this other band?

Gothic Metal is really just about sex at the end of the day. — Arcane Sandwich

Lots of music is, tho I wonder if you'd say the same about

Do you know this other band? — Arcane Sandwich

Nope! Tho by the sound of that song it sounds as if they're an influence -- the sultry deep voice links the bands, and the longing for a gothic girl links the songs.

Sex is a huge topic in Type O Negative, but sometimes its longing transforms into the masculine, even patriarchal, hatred of women who hurt them.

Kind of a gothic inverse of the Madonna-Whore distinction. They frequently go back and forth in their lyrics, if you listen to all of them (as I did in my teenage years ;) ) -- it's not hard to see that the Toxic Chad can quickly turn dark in a material way that the Toxic Virgins don't.

Lots of music is, tho I wonder if you'd say the same about — Moliere

Nope, though I'd say that Bauhaus is Gothic Rock, not Gothic Metal : P

Bauhaus is actually one of my favorite gothic bands, together with Sisters of Mercy.

sometimes its longing transforms into the masculine, even patriarchal, hatred of women who hurt them. — Moliere

Yeah, that's when they turn into Toxic Virgins. In other words, you're not much of Chad if women (or men!) "hurt your feelings", lol. I mean, if you're gonna get all whiny about it, then you don't have much self-esteem to begin with. And if you're gonna get all patriarchal about it, well, then you're not a real man, you know what I'm saying?

it's not hard to see that the Toxic Chad can quickly turn dark in a material way that the Toxic Virgins don't. — Moliere

Healthy Virgins don't turn dark in that material way either. I don't see Paramore fans promoting toxic masculinity or patriarchy. And they're virgins. It just so happens that they're healthy virgins instead of toxic virgins.

The real question, to my mind, is if Healthy Chads are promoting toxic masculinity. I don't think so. Consider the following song from Hatebreed, for example.



I could be wrong, though.

I don't think so, either, unless every masculinity is toxic -- which it may be, given patriarchy, but I don't believe it to be the case.

It could become a toxic masculinity, obviously, but the song is just about choosing to stand alone because of honor and not knowing what else there is. It sounds like they'd rather not stand alone; only noting that sometimes you have to do the man thing -- or are at least compelled to do the man thing -- and do the thing no one understands even tho you're alone because fuckit honor blah blah :D

There are outright fantasies of murder etc. in Type O Negative that are horrific, as well as a good deal of homophobia. It's definitely a product of its times.

I'd say that this is toxicity, at least.

I don't think the song you linked is toxic, tho.

There are outright fantasies of murder etc. in Type O Negative that are horrific, as well as a good deal of homophobia. It's definitely a product of its times.

I'd say that this is toxicity, at least. — Moliere

Yup, that's why they're Toxic Chads instead of Healthy Chads.

Though we should probably keep in mind that "Virgin" and "Chad" aren't exactly precise scientific concepts. Like, no one in sociology uses these concepts as sociological variables. Same goes for "Toxic" and "Healthy". It's all just fun and games when we talk like this, using these words. But I don't think that any peer-reviewed journal worth its salt would or even should accept a paper that attempts to use these concepts in a serious, scientific way.

Though we should probably keep in mind that "Virgin" and "Chad" aren't exactly precise scientific concepts. Like, no one in sociology uses these concepts as sociological variables. Same goes for "Toxic" and "Healthy". It's all just fun and games when we talk like this, using these words. But I don't think that any peer-reviewed journal worth its salt would or even should accept a paper that attempts to use these concepts in a serious, scientific way. — Arcane Sandwich

Yes I agree -- it's a typology invented in the moment, rather than something even close to any sort of academic exercise.

Nope, though I'd say that Bauhaus is Gothic Rock, not Gothic Metal : P

Bauhaus is actually one of my favorite gothic bands, together with Sisters of Mercy. — Arcane Sandwich

Heh I don't have your level of discrimination ;)

But I love both bands, and early goth rock, and their various influences.

I often think of goth music as expressing similar things to punk music, but only in another mode.

People say gothic-punk, but I think there might be a real philosophical aesthetic that connects them.

How would you categorize Kraftwerk?