Belongs in Lounge with others of the same ilk.

Belongs in Lounge with others of the same ilk. — Paine

Fixed. It is now in the Lounge category instead of the Philosophy of Art category.

I don't know Earth Crisis, but I do listen to some heavy metal music and like a lot of crossover of genres. I have been listening to 'Black Sabbath: The Dio Years', also various albums by Anathema. It can be hard to choose top 5 albums, as there are just so many bands and albums.

I started listening to nu metal initially, including Slipknot's 'When All Hope is Gone', some Linkin Park. I really like Marilyn Manson's 'Mechanical Animals'. But I do also like some hardcore/punk, including Against Me. I like Metallica but don't play them too often because they are so dark.

These are my favorites:

Operation Mindcrime
Painkiller
Rust in Peace
Seventh Son
Dirt (Alice in Chains)

Mindcrime never gets the credit it deserves

I don't know Earth Crisis — Jack Cummins

There's a Thread that I started in this Forum about their philosophical and political ideas, and there's some Youtube videoclips of their songs that I've embedded into the comments, so if you're interested, that's a useful reference and resource. Basically, I'll tell you what they're all about: they are Vegan Straight Edge.

I started listening to nu metal initially — Jack Cummins

I started with Metallica. Awful band, probably the worst band in the history of metal. And I'm allowed to say that because they were the first metal band that I took seriously.

including Slipknot's 'When All Hope is Gone', some Linkin Park. I really like Marilyn Manson's 'Mechanical Animals'. — Jack Cummins

Slipknot's best album is Mate, Feed, Kill, Repeat. They're from Iowa, so it's understandable that they're essentially a group of Evil Clowns Banging on Trash Cans (Think of the movie Field of Dreams, for example. That's sort of what Slipknot are about, since they even have an album called "Iowa").

Linkin Park is cool.

Marilyn Manson gets a 2 out of 5 starts, as far as I'm concerned. He's just a watered-down version of Trent Reznor, IMHO. And his band is just a watered-down version of Trent's band, Nine Inch Nails.

But I do also like some hardcore/punk, including Against Me. I like Metallica but don't play them too often because they are so dark. — Jack Cummins

Never heard of them. Must be a new band. I'll check them out later, thanks for the reference.

These are my favorites:

Operation Mindcrime
Painkiller
Rust in Peace
Seventh Son
Dirt (Alice in Chains) — RogueAI

Damn, Queensrÿche in the First Place? Brave move, I can respect that.

(hello BTW, really scary pseudonym you got there, honestly)

Judas Priest in second place, that's a bold move. (Or is it a "bald" move, since Rob is bald?)

Megadeth in third place, Ok. I can respect that.

By "Seventh Son" I imagine that you're referring to Iron Maiden's album "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son". Ok, I can respect that.

Alice in Chains is somewhat of an odd choice, but if I can get away with Earth Crisis as a metal band, you most certainly can get away with Alice in Chains as a metal band.

Mindcrime never gets the credit it deserves — RogueAI

I think that Queensrÿche in general don't get the credit that they deserve. But that's a problem within NWOBHM in general, Iron Maiden just eclipses everything in that scene. You know which one is my favorite from that genre? Angel Witch.

:100:

This is my 666th post, and I'll celebrate it with The Number of the Beak by Hatebeak:

Metallica, 1991, 1986, 1984

BOC 1972, 1973

Ok, let's see.

Metallica's self-titled "Black Album" for First Place? Ok, I can respect that. You seem to be the kind of metalhead that likes to see just how far metal can actually go, if we just dump a ton of resources and energy into it. Or maybe I'm wrong.

"Master of Puppets" in second place, and "Ride the Lightning" in third place. And "Kill 'Em All" didn't make your list? Some odd choices right there. I see what you're getting at, but I would have listed "And Justice for All" in Second Place if that's where you wanna take that line of reasoning. Again, I could be wrong in my reading of you.

Blue Öyster Cult in fourth and fifth place. Ok, I see what you're doing here, you're mirroring what I did with Earth Crisis and Sabbath. Ok, that's cool.

@Jack Cummins Here's a song by Earth Crisis.

"Human" by Death on 1. Don't care about the rest.

"Human" by Death on 1. Don't care about the rest. — Benkei

Damn. You know Death is actually a respectable band, in the grand sense of "respectable", despite what the naysayers say. My favorite song by them is "The Philosopher". Let's hear it:

Here's a recent metal band that I think is quite good, they have that jazzy, avant-garde thing going on, like a few bands before them (think Atheist, or Cynic, for example)

Not album, but I love this metal cover. Also @unenlightened -- maybe a blasphemy, but hopefully not.

Bad with albums -- but this is another heavy metal song I love:

I expect a ton of hate for a lot of things, here. — Arcane Sandwich

Well, isn't that what heavy metal is all about? If you can define the key features, "the essence" of heavy metal, then we could judge the material as to how well it fulfills the criteria. You need to define "the feeling". If you just go on how it sounds, then we'll get all sorts of shape-shifting, genre-crossing posers, pretending, just to cash-in. You know, like the way the country guys do. Then we have sex-starved, cry-in-my-beer, crossed with a-ton-of-hate. What's your favourite "country-metal"?

Well, isn't that what heavy metal is all about? — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, unfortunately that's what it's all about. That, and cool guitar riffs. And long hair. That's basically it.

If you can define the key features, "the essence" of heavy metal, then we could judge the material as to how well it fulfills the criteria. — Metaphysician Undercover

Hmmm... the "essence" of heavy metal? I don't think it has one. Some things have essences, but not necessarily all of them. I don't think that heavy metal has an essence. It just doesn't seem that way to me. But I could be mistaken, of course.

You need to define "the feeling". — Metaphysician Undercover

I need to define "the feeling"? Of heavy metal? It feels heavy, and metallic. And somewhat pretentious, of course. And in very bad taste, if we compare it to, I don't know, jazz or whatever. But jazz is just as pretentious as heavy metal, if not more. So, there's that, I guess.

If you just go on how it sounds, then we'll get all sorts of shape-shifting, genre-crossing posers, pretending, just to cash-in. — Metaphysician Undercover

I don't really use the term "poser". It reminds me of Heidegger's nonsensical difference between "authentic existence" and "impersonal existence" (what he calls "das Man"). It sounds like a fallacious rant to my ear. No True Scotsman, No True Dasein, No True Metalhead, yadda yadda. Heavy metal is just loud music for drunken assholes, there isn't really much "Trueness" to it. Like, if you're worried about "posers in the scene", then you kinda need to get an actual life, you know what I'm saying?

You know, like the way the country guys do. Then we have sex-starved, cry-in-my-beer, crossed with a-ton-of-hate. What's your favourite "country-metal"? — Metaphysician Undercover

My favorite country metal? I like country, not sure about country metal. I like The Highwaymen, for example. Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, all of that stuff. I like the stuff that leans more on the Honky Tonk side, like Waylon Jennings for example, instead of the stuff that leans more on the pop side, like Dolly Parton. Outlaw country, I guess you could call it. I'm not sure what to think of the Dixie Chicks, I'm kinda on the fence there. The best country that I've heard in recent years Shannon McNally:

Speaking of country:



And here is Afroman's version of that song. Afroman's version is way better:

I need to define "the feeling"? Of heavy metal? It feels heavy, and metallic. And somewhat pretentious, of course. And in very bad taste, if we compare it to, I don't know, jazz or whatever. But jazz is just as pretentious as heavy metal, if not more. So, there's that, I guess.

If you just go on how it sounds, then we'll get all sorts of shape-shifting, genre-crossing posers, pretending, just to cash-in.
— Metaphysician Undercover

I don't really use the term "poser". It reminds me of Heidegger's nonsensical difference between "authentic existence" and "impersonal existence" (what he calls "das Man"). It sounds like a fallacious rant to my ear. No True Scotsman, No True Dasein, No True Metalhead, yadda yadda. Heavy metal is just loud music for drunken assholes, there isn't really much "Trueness" to it. Like, if you're worried about "posers in the scene", then you kinda need to get an actual life, you know what I'm saying? — Arcane Sandwich

What about the "hate" though? Didn't you agree that this is what it is all about? And isn't this a feeling? Aren't the form of those cool guitar riffs, scales and effects, an expression of that hate? Don't you think it's possible to be a poser in relation to this feeling?

My favorite country metal? I like country, not sure about country metal. — Arcane Sandwich

I was thinking along the lines of Eric Church maybe, or someone like that.

Anyway, the mention of "poser" has to do with the matter of "feeling". The feeling of hate, though amplified by the guitar riffs, is best expressed by the vocal quality. Any band can mimic the instrumental sound, but the feelings expressed by the vocal quality are difficult to imitate. That's why the whiney country voice doesn't quite cut it for heavy metal. Maybe Johnny Cash could've made it in the metal scene.

What about the "hate" though? Didn't you agree that this is what it is all about? And isn't this a feeling? Aren't the form of those cool guitar riffs, scales and effects, an expression of that hate? Don't you think it's possible to be a poser in relation to this feeling? — Metaphysician Undercover

You seem to be under the impression that heavy metal has some Profound, Complex Theory of human emotions. It doesn't. It's just loud music for drunken assholes. There's not much to it in terms of conceptual sophistication. There's instrumental sophistication, sure, but that doesn't necessarily entail profound philosophical thought. I mean, not to throw Dragonforce under the bus here, but I'll definitely do it because they suck in a conceptual sense, even though they're great in an instrumental sense. Simpler: Heavy Metal sounds cool but it has poor lyrics.

I was thinking along the lines of Eric Church maybe, or someone like that. — Metaphysician Undercover

Not my cup of tea, honestly. Like I said: it's Outlaw country for me, or classic Honky Tonk. Or someone classy, like Shannon McNally. I don't listen to garbage, for example I don't listen to Hank Williams Jr.

Anyway, the mention of "poser" has to do with the matter of "feeling". The feeling of hate, though amplified by the guitar riffs, is best expressed by the vocal quality. Any band can mimic the instrumental sound, — Metaphysician Undercover

Not really. That's kinda what sets metal apart from other genres that derive from classical Rock n' Roll. It's the exact inverse case of Pink Floyd, for example. Pink Floyd has superb concepts and lyrics, but from a purely instrumental standpoint, they're not doing much, really. Whoever thinks that David Gilmour is a better guitarist that Yngwie Malmsteen is simply deluded. And whoever thinks that Malmsteen is a better lyricist than Gilmour is simply deluded. It is what it is. Rock in general has a rather hard time being excellent in both concepts and instrumentation, you generally have to specialize in one of them. If you specialize in concepts, your instrumentation will probably suck. If you specialize in instrumentation, your concepts will probably suck. There's very few bands that can do both.

the feelings expressed by the vocal quality are difficult to imitate — Metaphysician Undercover

Metal sucks as far as vocal quality goes. Pink Floyd is a million times better in that sense. But Pink Floyd sucks as far as the instrumentation goes. Gilmour looks like a clumsy beginner when you compare his guitar skills to Malmsteen's, for example.

That's why the whiney country voice doesn't quite cut it for heavy metal. — Metaphysician Undercover

Well, Pantera tried a sort of country-metal fusion, but it's just rednecks shouting stupid things. Anyone who likes Pantera probably likes Metallica as well, and I say that as someone who likes both of those stupid bands. They're stupid bands, let's be real about this. There's many more metal bands that are infinitely more talented than those clowns.

Maybe Johnny Cash could've made it in the metal scene. — Metaphysician Undercover

He did make it in the metal scene. Trent Reznor said that Cash's version of the song "Hurt" is the official version, even though Cash just did a cover of Reznor's song. If that's not making it in the metal scene, then I don't know what is.

BTW, here's a cool take on Slayer:

There's very few bands that can do both. — Arcane Sandwich

Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both?

TOOL comes to mind, but also it could be a cheap trick because they never explain themselves really -- it's all esoterica that alludes to psychedelic experience and trauma

EDIT: Also, I've never heard that Afroman cover and love it.

I listen to trash, like Hank Williams Jr., but the racism of some country stars has always bothered me -- Hank, Hank Jr, David Allen Coe -- because I like the songs, but hear the lyrics.

Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both?

TOOL comes to mind, but also it could be a cheap trick because they never explain themselves really -- it's all esoterica that alludes to psychedelic experience and trauma — Moliere

Tool might be one of the closest examples, though I wouldn't compare their technical knowledge of the guitar (acustic, electro-acustic, and electric) to Malmsteen's. I mean, this is just a fact, like, there's no arguing here, it's not a "subjective thing", if you will. It's entirely objective, and yes, I know that my opinion on objectivity is a controversial one.

But the problem with Tool specifically is that they are in the "Toxic Virgin" quadrant of the Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. You'll have to see the following video if you want to know what I mean by that, I'm too lazy to explain it here:

EDIT: Also, I've never heard that Afroman cover and love it. — Moliere

Dood. It's genius level stuff. The completely over-the-top distortion on that guitar. I was in stitches the first time I heard it, the sound of the guitar alone had me howling in laughter. And the lyrics are just insane. Afroman is legit, 100%. Did you listen to this one?

I listen to trash, like Hank Williams Jr. — Moliere

It's awful. Corny Country, Cringe Country.

the racism of some country stars has always bothered me -- — Moliere

Yeah well, there's something I gotta tell you about metal... (and about punk rock, and about rock and roll in general). EDIT: You know what? I'll just let Key & Peele tell you something about that:

Yeah well, there's something I gotta tell you about metal... (and about punk rock, and about rock and roll in general). EDIT: You know what? I'll just let Key & Peele tell you something about that: — Arcane Sandwich

:rofl: Yeahhh.....

Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both? — Moliere

To answer your question. It's a tough question, because most metal bands actually suck at instrumentation (believe it or not). I mean, in the jazz community for example, everyone is technically excellent, as far as instrumentation goes. In the metal community, you can be a shitty musician and still have a metal band. That's what it has in common with punk rock. But, yes, unlike punk, metal musicians "aspire to" some sort of perfection of their craft, or at least an acceptable level of technical proficiency, whereas punk rock just doesn't give a flying fuck about that (which I can genuinely respect, actually. It's the same attitude that early Grunge had, for example).

So, after careful consideration, and among many possible candidates for the band that is currently succeeding both conceptually and instrumentally, I would have to say that band is, currently, Alestorm. Why? Because they're fucking killing it, that's why.

Fuck True Norwegian Black Metal. This is True Scottish Pirate Metal, matey! :death:

As for the Silver Medal, I suppose that Swashbuckle currently deserves that:



As for the Bronze Medal, that one goes to Avatar:

Did you listen to this one? — Arcane Sandwich

Amazing. I didn't, but now have.

It's awful. Corny Country, Cringe Country. — Arcane Sandwich

Certainly!

I like it for whatever reason... I think it speaks a fantasy that never was



I enjoyed the song. I enjoy them creating this idea of pirate music that's metal :D

***

I relate TOOL to jazz a lot because the band mimics a lot of what jazz has already done with respect to rhythm -- they change rhythms throughout as jazz does as a way of making the music and expressing it.

I think I just like any music which plays with rhythm. (I started your video but they were talking about a lot more than Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. -- on its face I could see TOOL as Toxic Virgin, but I don't know why that's bad.)

Amazing. I didn't, but now have. — Moliere

The actual story behind the song is even crazier:

(...) Four deputies, two sergeants and one detective from the Adams County Sheriff's Office are accusing the rapper of profiting from the unauthorized use of their likenesses, at their personal and professional expense.

In a complaint filed in an Ohio pleas court last week, they say it's been more difficult and dangerous to carry out their duties "because of comments made and attitudes expressed toward them by members of the public" who have seen the videos.

They say they have received death threats, and also suffered "humiliation, ridicule, mental distress, embarrassment and loss of reputation." (...) — National Public Radio

I think it speaks a fantasy that never was — Moliere

I totally get it, believe me. But let's be real here, "A Country Boy Can Survive" is a dumb song. Maybe it was cool in like, I don't know the late 80's or early 90's. Today it just sounds corny. The Y2K version is better in that sense, independently of what side we take in the "Hank Williams Jr. VS Chad Brock" sort of debate:

I enjoyed the song. I enjoy them creating this idea of pirate music that's metal :D — Moliere

Dude, it's the only video (so far) that can't actually be played in The Philosophy Forum, you can only watch it on Youtube, and it's age-restricted. Like, you can probably embed actual fascist music in this Forum, but you can't embed Alestorm's song "Fucked With an Anchor". That's why they deserved the Gold Medal in Heavy Metal today, IMHO. They're so fucking over-the-top, it's insane. The whole "True Scottish Pirate Metal" thing is a sort of a half-joke directed at "True Norwegian Black Metal" bands. In other words, it's directed at "fucking wankers", in the wise words of the cultured folks from Scotland. In that sense, check out this killer song:

I relate TOOL to jazz a lot because the band mimics a lot of what jazz has already done with respect to rhythm -- they change rhythms throughout as jazz does as a way of making the music and expressing it. — Moliere

Sure, I listen to Tool myself. It's a mediocre band, that's all I'm saying.

I think I just like any music which plays with rhythm. (I started your video but they were talking about a lot more than Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. -- on its face I could see TOOL as Toxic Virgin, but I don't know why that's bad.) — Moliere

The dude in the video pulls up the chart in like, during the middle part of the video or something, and he uses Tool as an example of a Toxic Virgin. Not so much Tool themselves, but rather their fans. Tool fans are toxic virgins. He also says that Mötley Crüe and NOFX are toxic chads. "Boyfriend Country" would be Healthy Chads (think of the band Home Free, for example), Hatebreed would also be Healthy Chad, and in the Healthy Virgin quadrant he includes Paramore.

Anyways, yeah, Alestorm is fucking killing it. They're second to none (sorry Swashbuckle, it is what it is).

Check out this other song by Alestorm, this one is (to my mind) a serious song, unlike the ribald shanties that they usually sing. It's a philosophical song, that's why it's conceptually awesome, it's like Pink Floyd in that sense:



EDIT: Note to self, Alestorm are the Scottish Pink Floyd.

EDIT 2: Another note to self: Swashbuckle are the New Jersey version of Metallica.

EDIT 3: I intended the aformentioned Edits in an Anthropological sense. If someone feels offended by them, great.

And now we're going to listen to Alestorm's masterpiece, their song Treasure Island. I'll even post the lyrics, because it's their Masterpiece. It's like Pink Floyd's "The Wall". Alestorm has created a Conceptual Masterpiece, and this following song is like their Sacred Hymn, it's like Hesiod's Theogony in that sense. You have to listen to this one from an Anthropological point of view, objectively, because Anthropology is a science. So, let's listen to their Masterpiece from a scientific point of view:

[Verse 1]
How did we come to this place and time?
Our lives now ruled by a mariner's rime
We sold our souls to tell this tale
This quest for treasure we regale

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy

[Post-Chorus]
The mate was fixed by the Bosun's pike
The Bosun brained with a marlinspike
And cookey's throat was marked belike
It had been gripped by fingers ten
And there they lay all good dead men
Like break o'day in a boozing ken

[Verse 2]
High was the price that was paid this day
We spun the wheel 'til the coppers ran dry
Nevada sun was burning bare
The stench of everclear filled the air

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today

[Solo]

[Bridge 1]
Fifteen men on the dead man's chest
Drink and the devil had done for the rest
But one man of her crew alive
What put to sea was seventy-five

[Solo]

[Bridge 2]
On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Our luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Your luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
The fates shall be eternal on your side
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Outro]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
Our destiny lies in the waves
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy — Alestorm