I'm saying there is a 70% chance it won't be at a suicide inducing level in the future. — LuckyR

And I'm saying you don't know that.

Which you're free to do. Though I'm wondering if you impose your "know nothing" logic to all facets of your decision making.

First, the source of the "optimism" is the Actual Data that proves that among those in your exact situation (contemplating suicide), the vast majority (70 - 93%) will change their mind and decide that life is, in fact worth living after all. — LuckyR

A source of optimism for whom? The general public?

Though your implication is correct that many can not or will not understand or accept that data. But that is an error.

What are you talking about??
So if a person is contemplating suicide, they should reflect that there is a 70 - 93% chance that they will not pull the trigger/jump off a cliff/etc.??



You keep bringing in this sociological/statistical approach to a discussion that was from the onset intended to be philosophical. You keep avoiding the OP.

While it's understandable that the discussion of existential topics has to be opaque to some extent, at some point, all this opaqueness is just a waste of time.

Don't forget people who have degenerative illnesses who would prefer to die than continue to experience suffering. Also people who have experienced traumatic events (prolonged sexual abuse, etc). The memories and pain - the PTSD may never go away either. Suicide may feel like the only method to gain permanent relief. — Tom Storm

One thing that is systematically being avoided in this discussion is the topic of shame and disgrace.

There are things that a person can do or which can happen to a person that render the person's life worthless, from then on forever.

On the one hand, there are criminal acts a person might do that the state deems so evil that the person's life must be taken via the death penalty. What the person has done might in fact be "termporary", but the state thinks the person doesn't deserve to live anymore. Treason is a prime example.

On the other hand, traditionally, some dishonoring events in a person's life, such as a woman being raped or a military general losing an important battle, for example, were considered so shameful that the person was expected to kill themselves (or be killed). It had nothing to do with PTSD or "not being able to bear the pain".

Many people who undergo such things never recover, their brains seem to be rewired by the trauma. — Tom Storm

Do people even want everyone to survive?

If yes, then why the military industry (guns are for killing people, yes), why the approval of euthanasia and assisted suicide, why the approval of capital punishment?

Are suicidal people not correctly reflecting society's actual values? Namely, that some lives are not worth living?

Kind of a dud answer if all you're gonna say is "it's subjective". — Darkneos

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics.

Not avoiding the OP. The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. Everyone knows death is inevitable, only the timing of it is changeable.

The reality is we're all going to spend the vast majority of eternity as not alive, the only difference is the length of the tiny fraction of eternity being alive.

As to my statistical analysis, as it happens this topic of suicide is unusual in that there is a ton of experience of prior suicidal individuals who fail at their attempt and whether their personal viewpoint at the darkest moment of their life (by definition), ended up being an accurate analysis and prediction of their personal future. This analysis is an opportunity to glimpse into the future. Ignore this opportunity at your own risk.

Perhaps the most important thing to learn in such discussions is that existential topics (including the question of suicide) are mostly pointless to try to discuss with others, and that this is due to the nature of those topics. — baker

Maybe, but they are also extremely important. To be honest such questions are more important than ontological or metaphysical stuff.

The OP makes the error of implying that death is something that individuals can opt for or against. — LuckyR

Well you can, it's just that death wins in the end.

This supposedly adverse effect on others is so often grossly overstated. — baker

My older brother killed himself last March, and in a pretty ugly way. This event devastated our large family. We are all traumatized, his siblings, his grown kids, his grandkids, some nieces and nephews, his friends. His grown son didn't speak for a couple of weeks after the death. My mom cries every day still. And prior to that, I saw her cry, just barely, maybe only five times. Was a tough lady!

My view of the world and life darkened considerably. I decided not to have kids with my wife partly because of it. And we just today decided on divorce over my reluctance to have kids.

And my brother was partly driven to that by the suicide of our nephew a long time ago, one he had taken under his wing and who spent his late teens with him. My nephew had two boys of his own when he committed suicide. That suicide sent my brother's life spiralling. He never got over it. Drove him to heavy drinking and painkillers. Destroyed his marriage. This nephew's suicide also wrecked the lives of his mom and three sisters.

Might sound like a BS story to you, but it's true.

I also have a friend whose stepdad committed suicide when my friend was a teen. Wrecked him. He was the darkest person I've ever known. So depressed. Suicidal himself. I was his lifeline, his only friend. Then, years later, his biological father did it too. And then, his counselor, also an older man, killed himself too. My friend was quite a mess for a long time. Luckily, he found God (I haven't), got married, and now has kids and is mostly okay, if a bit crazy.

Again, you probably think that's BS. It's not, unfortunately.

Suicide is horrific for the people who loved the person. It isn't at all like a normal death. I've thought about it myself a lot, but would never even consider going through with it unless I had no connections. I wouldn't do that to the people who love me. I've seen what it does to people.

Might not be relevant from a philosophical POV, but I highly recommend watching the "Death's Game" on Netflix. You will come up with answers to the questions you have mentioned by yourself. Do share your thoughts afterwards, if you decide to watch.